New Experimental Organic Hydro Technique!

[LadyLargely]

LadyL, what do you think of the idea of adding the coco mat on top of the Water Zone?

Kinda neat but unnecessary for what I do. I could see it being needed for this crazy recirculating Bio Bucket/OBBT grow thing you guys are cooking up. Good luck with that shit. Just sounds like an awful lot of needless complication to me. But I've never run any form of traditional hydro or otherwise recirculating rig so mebbe I'm just ignorant.

 

[rrog]

I'm just getting started, so I'm wide open for ideas LL. I'm not married to any idea or any mentor

 

[rrog]

OK, I'm going back to original OBBT plans here. One 5 gal pail per plant.

The RIG:

Install system drain at absolute bottom. Use this for the water level gauge also as RipVanWeed did.

Install overflow drain 4" up. (4" of water, 5" of Hydroton on the bottom)

I would run 2 airlines to each plant. I have 4" long x 2" wide cylindrical airstones. 2 per plant with a large airpump.
I have had better luck with them, compared to the flexible wands. I think a failure there would be bad, so having two stones with high reliability allows the system to survive if one line goes down.

Simplest device I ever saw...

Questions:

Is it more valuable to have more water? Go from 4" to 5"?

Can we cap this system with a fabric that allows moisture to pass? This would replace the thicker pearlite layer, allowing a taller organic layer and longer veg period.

I'm gathering that there can't be a membrane of sorts on the hydroton layer to separate water zone from organic zone. But that coco mat keep hitting me in the head. Seems like if something kept organic debris out of the water, the O2 distribution would be better.

But I've never done anything like this so I don't know. I've only done drip hydro.

Is there a recommended way to apply a filter over the overflows?

I would be very interested to get an O2 probe in the water zone from time to time. Still thinking on that one.

Thank you very much

 

[Citizen024]

It'll be interesting to watch this all from the sidelines. And I like the idea of seeing a crop from beginning to end.

Props to the ICMag mods, keeping it nice and user friendly as the #1 priority while still letting people put there money where their mouths are.

Lets PLEASE try remember one thing- in the end we are all playing on the same team (and we all know who the real opposition is, and may none of us meet their graces), and "winning" isn't really what its about. All these folks who are trying these bathes out for the fist time need support. I know I would want it if it was my grow, rather then being gloated on cause it was my first time and it didn't come out super banging. Thats like a pro football player picking on a high school quarterback.

The fact any of us come here and share is a gift. Thank you all for your contributions.

As for the bath/bucket hydrid: purely brainstorming for how to make this thing run larger the closet sized. I feel it is overly complicated myself. "Keep it simple stupid". I would honestly just go to straight up multiple bio bucket systems for larger scale. I have yet to see anyone purpose how to automate this system, or take it beyond a small scale application. AND there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, plenty of things are like this: better at some scale then others. To my mind though, for this to be more then it is currently would mean taking it to that level- somehow.

The coco mat strikes me as a good thing; also allowing better O2 distribution by breaking bubbles, as well as perhaps keeping stones from gunking. I haven't heard ANYONE address that possible issue yet (and maybe cause it really isn't one), but it strikes me as possible. All those powder ammendments, bacteria, medium, etc. = gunkiness. I have seen stones get all slimy and not function well in other organic systems. All just conjecture.

 

[rrog]

Would the roots get wrapped around the bubblers? I'm picturing trying to aerate in the water zone with a massive root ball wrapped around the bubblers. Obviously the more that happens, the less efficient O2 distribution. Less water also.

Earlier in the thread DM mentioned the need to keep the organic zone free from disturbances. Don't handle after the system is set. He mentioned that farmers with fields are also following a non-disturbance with how they plow. This disturbance was with respect to the microherd.

I have wondered about similar disturbance with root hairs in hydro systems. The root hairs, being single celled components, are incredibly fragile. Is it possible that a hydro systems like aero could possibly fracture those hairs? I just remember my professor at school stressing how fragile they were.

The OBBT, on the other hand, strikes be to be about as stable as can ever be. I am sorry for monopolizing this thread...

 

[Citizen024]

I concur Rrog. I am also curious how amendments are added WITHOUT opening the thing up and putting them in. Water in tea? Hows it done?

Once again, I am thinking the coco mat might help make it possible to do system maintenance during a round, since as it seems right now opening it up would be difficult, and potentially dangerous for the plants.

I also like the one large container concept for multiple plants, way more user friendly. I wonder of this could effectively done with trays like 4x4's or 3x6's with basic gravity drains installed to allow easy maintenance of water level..

Still though, large areas start talking about a LOT of air pumps, or the need for a compressor even. All of these= loud and complex. Not the way to stay unnoticed and simple.

 

[solarpowered_ca]

rrog perhaps you may try having one pot with coco matting and one without and see if their is any diffirence .

 

[rrog]

I could, Solar, but I'd think I'd rather pick a or b and do it. I'll only have three plants.

Things seem to have quieted down here. This is exactly what I was afraid of.

 

[SlowCalaToker]

Oh this shit is gonna be fun!

And I thought dalihempy was hard on ol' DM, looks lke the LadyL scorned (don't take that wrong LL, I'm just pulling the stereotype for comic emphasis...) is gonna show a new can of whupass on the ol' DungeonMaster!

Just what a want to see: how easy is this shit to do, really....

 

[SlowCalaToker]

Things seem to have quieted down here. This is exactly what I was afraid of.

Give it a day or two rr, seems to me like the good Lady isn't the type to spew and run. I get the feeling we're gonna watch a practicing expert on this method show us the ropes in an actual grow thread.

Hey DM, much love and props to you for bringing all this data and info to us. Please stay and keep advising. Being called out can be a lot of fun too. Ever give some thought to running a grow to demonstrate even though you would pitch the finished product due to the testing limitations you are under? A couple of bagseeds in a hidden location just to demonstract?

Just a thought (wish,reqest, hope, whatever...)

 

[rrog]

I sure hope so, SlowCal. This could continue to be such a cool thing. And DM has been so cool about explanations and answers

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

Oh sweet Christ deliver me

Fuck. ShoeHorn always said that bad luck comes in threes. Thursday I got called in for jury duty, yesterday I got in a semi-severe auto collision, and now today I come home to my beloved thread to find it defiled!

So its LadyLargely now eh kiddo? Bumfuck Michigan? I swear you change identities like most people change underwear. Alright, so Lady L it is.

I'm sorry if it seems like getting on the ICmag forums is going against my convictions, but I don't see it as letting marijuana back into my life. I'm still not smoking, I'm still not growing. Cannabis is a very interesting plant and coming here for me has been only an intellectual pursuit.

LL, you know the way our relationship ended was not my intention. My priorities in life simply changed. I no longer need to have a relationship with THC. There are bigger and more important things in life than smoking the ganjas. I'm pushing hard to become a legitimate professional while you are still cooped up in your shitty little closet growing small-time buds whilst paying no mind to your future. You've traded everything so that you could keep growing. School, work, relationships, they've all fallen by the wayside.

I on the other hand have managed to keep my love and respect for cannabis alive while keeping my chances at a good future in tact. I'm sorry doing this has pissed you off so much.

On top of that, yes, I am sorry for not mentioning that development of the OBBTs was not something I accomplished all on my own. I would like everyone to know that without LadyLargley I never would have got this thing off the ground. She was instrumental in my early cannabis cultivation days. She provided motivation and funding that I never could have got on without. She may be brash and talks like a sailor, but Lady L deserves every bit as much respect and reverence as I have earned from the community with this thread. You can trust her advice just as much as you can trust mine.

Strap in guys, if she follows through on her promise we might soon be seeing an OBBT grow thread that will blow all of us out of the water!

Mr. Wags:
You're killing me bro! Went and started an arena for competition that I can't even participate in! Lady L has a special touch when it comes to stirring things up and getting new projects into motion. I think the organic grow-off thread will do much good here in the Organic Hydro forums, I'm just disappointed that I will be unable to compete.

But no matter! RipVanWeed, ScrubNinja, Silver Surfer, Solarpowered_ca and anyone else who has or will be brave enough to give the OBBTs a try:

This is a call to arms! This is war! We've got some very accomplished gardeners in here. My confidence in the simplicity and inherent right-ness of the OBBTs is very strong. I think it is possible for an experienced cannabis cultivator to nail an OBBT grow on his/her first try. I maintain you guys have built the nicest OBBT cannabis gardens yet to have existed! I think with our combined efforts we can give LadyLargely a run for her money! As much as her sudden presence irritates me I think it will be good for the community. I am very interested to see how you first-time OBBT gardeners get on compared to an old pro. I think people will be shocked at just how close you guys can get. The OBBT is based on simple, solid principals that are grounded in science. I have the utmost confidence that more than one of you will be showing off some serious results!

rrog:

Never fear my friend. It will take a lot more than an old blow-hard like Lady L to keep me away from here. Her words may sound harsh but they are very mild compared to some of the things she's said to me before. I will continue to maintain this thread and answer OBBT-related questions for much time to come. Speaking of which:

The coco matt sounds like it could be the missing link to create an auto-watered daisy-chained OBBT. I think that going with a deeper bath would be the thing to do in a recirculated situation. Consider making the thing perhaps as much as 50% bath by volume. A water-fall style recirc system could allow you to get much more aggressive with the amount of water used.

As for clogged air stones I was worried about this too. However it has never happened. I just finished a 5-month long tomato grow out of some 9 gallon OBBT buckets. When I cut the plants down and flipped the tubs over to investigate I was shocked. My 12 inch long air stone sat perfectly in a channel right down the middle of the root-bound rocks. When I tilted the solid cube of dried medium to the side a little the air stone flopped right out! 5 months of straight running and there was no gunking or clogging at all!! The DWC guys seem to have endless issues with roots clogging their air stones. The OBBT does not appear to develop this problem. I believe that having all of the rock/hydroton around to cling onto makes the roots much less "grabby". They seem perfectly content to strangle the crap out of the rock layer whilst leaving the air stone alone.

Filters on the overflow are an unkown to me. They may be necessary if you want to run a recirculation system. Recirc on OBBTs sounds very interesting but there are some fundemental issues you will need to get round.

What truly sets the OBBT apart, something many of you have had trouble grasping, is that it is a hydro technique which includes SOIL. So far as I know it is the only hydro technique in existance that does so. The presence of soil combined with the massive oxygen levels is what drives the microbes crazy. Induvidual soil particles are mind-bendingly small. This is why soil only makes up about 20% of an OBBT medium. All of the other stuff, the coco, the pearlite, the vermiculite, is simply there as a sort of scaffold. They are meant to grasp and prop up the tiny dirt particles and prevent them from being washed away. They do this job admirably in a hand-watered situation.

Going recirc could make maintaining the soil content a bit harder, but I'm not sure. As I have mentioned before, the runoff from a fully-incubated OBBT is completely clear despite all of the dirt. I attribute this to the very strong mycelium network. The fungus is literally grasping onto the soil particles to prevent them from being washed away. Teamed up with a coco matt to seperate the medium from the bath could be enough to make this idea of yours work. Keep researching and keep asking questions, it is sounding more do-able to me all the time.

SlowCalToker:

Can of whoopass is right! Lady L is all about taking action and something tells me she's gonna come down on these forums like a ton of bricks!

As for a demonstration-purposes-only cannabis grow I'm afraid that just isn't possible. I live with my girlfriend who would not be cool with that at all. Additionally, I think the temptation to toke on the glorious nugs that resulted would simply be too strong to resist. Growing cannabis just isn't something I can do at this point in my life. Part of me dreads LadyL having shown up to wipe me out, but another part is glad she's here to show you all how to do it properly. If I where to pick any one person in the whole world to do an instructional run of the OBBTs it would be her.

Her sudden presence will also force me to face some past deamons and perhaps she and I can even make ammends through the environment provided by this great community. I don't expect her to cool off any time soon, but that is a good thing. Being pissed at me is gonna motivate her in a way nothing else can. We wind eachother up in a way that is truly unique.

Well, for better or worse its gonna be one hell of a show! LadyLargely has stirred things up and I think her presence will generate a new injection of interest in the OBBT technique. In the end, this is what I truly desire. If having her around gets the OBBTs established as a solid cultivation technique faster then I guess I'm glad she's here.

Good luck to all and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[LadyLargely]

So its LadyLargely now eh kiddo? Bumfuck Michigan? I swear you change identities like most people change underwear. Alright, so Lady L it is.

Oh I'm sorry, has the change confused you? At least I have enough creativity to come up with new identities. You've had the same goddamn one since you took the name I gave you 7 years ago and thought you where clever by adding an "-iah" onto the end!

I'm sorry if it seems like getting on the ICmag forums is going against my convictions, but I don't see it as letting marijuana back into my life. I'm still not smoking, I'm still not growing. Cannabis is a very interesting plant and coming here for me has been only an intellectual pursuit.

Whatever helps you sleep at night DrunkenMess.

I'm pushing hard to become a legitimate professional while you are still cooped up in your shitty little closet growing small-time buds whilst paying no mind to your future. You've traded everything so that you could keep growing. School, work, relationships, they've all fallen by the wayside.

PFFFFFFFfffffft! And how would you know!? You've not said two fuckin words to me in the last year!

I'll have you know that I have moved on from my 'shitty little closet'. Go on over to the growroom forums to see the thread on my new room. I may have traded a lot to be a pot farmer but at least I still have my dignity, my individuality and above all my passion!

Do you remember DrunkenMess? Can you still recall what chasing your passion feels like? Can you think back to when we had that together!? There was a time when I thought that would never end. What a silly little girl I was.

Sorry everyone for all the non-cannabis-related posts I've made in this thread. DrunkenMess and I are officially done re-uniting. I shall now proceed to move my happy ass over to my own thread. Anyone wishing to see my take on the OBBT or ask me questions about it can do so over there.

 

[prelude91sir]

Do you think just adding air stones to a tub/pot/bed will make a difference? I want to try and get more air to the roots. i have about 40-50 plants under 2k each harvest. the only way i see how i could possibly try this is with beds. So ive been thinking of making 4x4 beds and putting air stones at the bottom covered with hydroton/lava rocks and continue to use promix as my meduim. Do you think the plants will still benefit from the extra air without the bath affect?

 

[Citizen024]

Eureka!!! Large scale idea

Eureka!!! Large scale idea

Dude Prelude!!! I was thinking the same thing!! Like seriously not more then an hour ago. I think I finally got how to scale these things up to the size we need. Basically turn the tray into one big ass-airstoned-mediumed-crazy-bio bucket. Here's what I am thinking:

Take your standard 4x4, and build up higher walls with boards and pondliner. Or simply built tables. Now rig a ebb and flow fitting (if you really snazzy, rig them both 4" up on the side wall, so it can't possibly drain- like a DWC bucket) 4" highover fill if doing simple ebb and flow. Probably want to use 1" over flow fittings, get em large so they flow. Place in airstones a plenty (this could get really dicey- going to have to use those large 8 liner air pumps that get loud and pump a TON of air). Rock to 4", a coco mat on top of that, then fill as directed earlier in these posts. About another 3-4" it sounds like.

Place a res under it, small is all you need really. Like maybe 15-20 gallons. Hook up the ebb and flow (or side mounted DWC style) fitting, and let er run. Run pump all the time; probably doesn't want a high rate of flow even, I would try a 500 gph to start, maybe a 600. I bet though high rate of water movement won't hurt anything though. This in THEORY would make it all even out, and allow you to simply top off the res to keep it happy with water all the time. Running a smaller res should keep it from allowing much flux between medium and res. Just think of the res as a small kiddie pool of a much bigger lake. The medium basically houses a slowly constantly moving bio-filtered river. There is so much oxygen from the air stones it shouldn't matter if the flow is so slow. I am guessing this thing could really suck up some water- and a float valve on the res would make that entirely self regulating without having to monitor water levels. That is what makes a bio system so appealing- getting the microbes to do my work!!! I would bet too that like a bio bucket, this thing would actually run better on tap.

I bet that this would run like most bio systems: self regualted water level (float valve), with no need for ph control, only the addition of fertilizer. EFFICEINTCY at its best!!!

THAT is why I have such as interest in developing larger scale bio systems, cause they can so easily be run by one person. Get the microbes to do the work for me!!!! And this one doesn't have the complex plumbing of a bio bucket, with the addition of the medium (which I like). I bet it doesn't need a water chiller either, since the pump is so small, and the tray is a giant heat release system too. If they can be replanted into- then damn . . what a winner.

It also makes adding nutrient very easy. Simply toss filter bags of raw amendments in the res, or add whatever raw liquids. I would consider even just brewing very solid teas- but first taking my amendments to a coffee grinder and powdering them so they could move into the system.

I am guessing you would need to divide the plants as well with little walls, hence the mat keeping them somewhat seperated as well, but allowing roots and water to flow well.

If it works, it would be super easy to maintain, expands the size potential IMMENSELY and keeps it super simple still.

I have to build a mother system real soon- i am going to do small mock up under a 250 to try it out. I'll post it up as I do it when the time comes. I am confident enough in the principles that I pretty sure I can make it work. If it works as well as I think it could.. well then .. .. we shall see about converting a 4x4.

What do you think gang?

 

[Citizen024]

Oww yeah, and all a filter bag to the return from the overflow to catch debris- though I hear the claim of the water returning clean, at this size it's so easy to do compared to the risk of a clog, why not? I am guessing it would run clean within a week of starting it up.

 

[prelude91sir]

yeah thats kinda what i had in mind. I want to continue to hand water though, so i can have total control over nutes and waterings. I wonder if promix would be a good medium for this??? im thinking if the the drain would be about 4" from the bottom, the beds need to be about 14-16" high? so there can be about 10-12" of medium? My 3 gallon pots are about 12" high. I have no intentions on dividing the plants. there will be anywhere from 20-25 per 4x4. I also plan on building a stand with wheels for the 4x4 beds so i can move them around(to water). I plan on having 4 4x4(8x8) in box form under 4 1k lights. only running 2 zigzag every hour or 2.

 

[Citizen024]

I thought about the big box no divide too, as I would need to place 25 as well. Trellis looks like a good idea with this too. I am right in line with the wheel etc, would just add quick connects to the hoses.

Man, I wish I could just jump right to this. The maintenance would be so much easier that my current drip/handwater 4x4 (which isn't bad, but this could be so much better!) It wouldn't be much a switch up actually since my room is pretty much done with a very similar set up to yours.

Your sizes sound about right. Are you planning on boxes with pond liner?

 

[Citizen024]

How many airstones do you think?

As a starting ball park figure guess: 16. 1 per sq foot, with 2 of the high powered 8 line feeder pumps running into it.

Not fair, I would so bust it out right now. Well, change over comes in 4 weeks. . )

Seriously think we are onto to something here. If you happen to get em up and running, would you be into running 1 on a res to see if it works? You could quick connect it so it stays right put when you want to move your tray. I think the potential for it to really work advantageously is huge. I am pretty seasoned vet and know good ideas when I see em.

Somehow I have a funny feeling we are in the same county too.

 

[prelude91sir]

still looking into my options. in order to have it 12"+ deep i might have to build my own out of wood. I havent seen a premade 4x4 tube/grow bed thats is that deep. not sure off the top of my head how i will run the drain through wood using pond liner?