New Experimental Organic Hydro Technique!

[SlowCalaToker]

The how to keep em seperate while in one big pool is quite a challenge. I think it is doable though.

Look at NFT and large aeroponic systems- all plants in one tube/reservoir with their roots all mixing. BUT they start seperated enough that by the time they meet they are all fairly up and running. We don't need to keep em sealed in, just enough for them to get established. Once they touch the nutrient they are going to blow up like they are in DWC, or like the explosion that happens when they are in aero and they touch the nutrient.

Know what I mean?

I plan on starting from clone for my mother tray, but in flowering application they will already be coming out of a 5" coco/perlite from an ebb and flow tray nice and established. That should help too.

When I first looked at DM's design and realized it had to be modified to take to a larger application (and we are not talking huge here, just more then 10) the first thing I thought of was "this thing needs to recirculate in order to keep it regulated evenly at all times". I know the nutrient will move around without recirc- but the O2 might not be so even. Plus by moving it and having a res the water level of the tray is always the same. I am thinking it probably does not have to be moved all that much- slow. And it might only need to be cycled .

Alas i do need to build one to put this all to the test, for now it's all conjecture. I do find though that really thinking a system through and bouncing ideas off folks before doing anything is helpful to getting a practical model faster.

Weed fabric from Home Depot is in the lead. Anyone want to venture clever ways for securing this to either coco mat or the bottom of a tray? Clever suspension tricks?

I upgraded my PVC scaffold idea for hanging the fabric from. Now I am thinking I can simply run a grid of wire and suspend the fabric from it with little clips. It just holds cloth which is surrounded by medium, so it really doesn't have to be too structurally secure. Attach the wire to edges of the tray just like a trellis. Bingo- done.

Right now I am leaning toward rocks, then mat, then fabric walls attatched to the mat, then medium. Letting the flood level and below be free of barriers seems like it will keep the fabric from potentially interfering with the flow of water/O2 and elinimate flood risk.

I can see it being a pain in the ass to get it done the first time, securing all these fabric flaps. But the rest is all so easy. And you might not have to change your medium for several runs or even longer. So you may not do it all that often really In the mean time it saves you from so much other maintenance that its well worth it in the long run.

Please forgive my stupidity here, but I'm having a hard time visualizing what you want to do with the fabric...

Are you trying to keep the roots in the organic soil segregated, or are you trying to keep all the roots segregated, all the way down into the lava rock bath?

If it's the second, then I would build/sew (probably sew) a tray-like unit that would encompass the entire plant from the top of the soil/pearlite to the bottom or the bath. If the first, I would sew a square unit with the top and bottom open to the height of the soil. I think you would have better success with a tray-like unit that encases the whole plant. I think suspending the fabric is a problem waiting to happen, and doesn't provided enough structural integrity. Suspending a tight-sewn tray would be fine since the structural integrity comes from the sewn seams of the tray.

The only questions I have with regard to this setup is: how permeable to water and nutes is the mesh (would there be good enough circulation of each through the mesh to each fabric tray), and would you need an individual air stone from each fabric tray (I think you would)

This is getting interesting, even more than before

 

[SlowCalaToker]

Citizen024:

Holy shit man! In the course of less than two weeks you have mentally transformed the OBBT from a humble single-plant organic gardening system to something with the potential to be a huge game-changer in the world of en-masse cannabis cultivation. The multiple small containers in a single massive flood table (Idea # 2) just sounds extraordinary! I can't wait to see some documentation on the process once you finally begin construction. I never imagined that the OBBTs would have been taken this far when I first started this thread. Can't thank you guys enough!

Good luck and happy gardening!

What do you expect from stoners? We are more inventive that the poor slobs shoving things into their prison pocket in lockup!

 

[rrog]

The only questions I have with regard to this setup is: how permeable to water and nutes is the mesh (would there be good enough circulation of each through the mesh to each fabric tray), and would you need an individual air stone from each fabric tray (I think you would)

This is getting interesting, even more than before

I agree it's absolutely fascinating. The landscape fabric would not impede air nor water. Just blocks roots is all. Get a piece in your hand and see. Seems so open that it wouldn't stop a root, but it does. I've used a crap-load in my outdoor plantings (not weed)

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

Great thoughts running around here. I'm grateful to be here at this time and place.

I'm wondering if my growing three plants would actually benefit from a re-circ system. If I had three 5-gallon pails in a full out OBBT system, then I'm only supplying water. Not so precious a commodity that I can't afford to run it to waste.

If I wanted to automate the system so that I could leave it alone for a few days, I would have to supply water a few times a day I suppose, and collect the waste from overflow.

Am I now under-thinking this? Could I build a system that is this straightforward?

Actually you are still over-thinking it Rrog. If you want the system to be cool for a few days then just leave it exactly how I have described. The OBBTs can go without any attention from the grower for more than a week! Even when the plants are drinking at their heaviest (during streach) I very much doubt that they will need water more often than once a week. A five gallon OBBT will be holding nearly 2 gallons worth of bath, no way in hell a plant can drink that much in less than a week.

'automating' the OBBT for any less than a dozen plants is, in my opinion, a really stupid idea. The OBBTs in their current form are already very automated. Ph, nutrient dosage, infections, de-stressing and a whole big laundry list of things are already taken care of for the grower by the microbes. Even the simplest of OBBTs reduces the maintinence scedule to a weekly affair. Short of a fully-automated hydro system that can re-fill its own res, read the nute levels and intelligently adjust them istelf the ordinary OBBT is about as low-maintinence as gardening gets.

"I would have to supply water a few times a day"

No, wrong, not even close. The bubblers ensure that mosture levels in the medium remain as high as possible. This is NOT a fucking coco drip setup. The medium is NOT relying on sceduled waterings to keep mostiure high enough. So long as there is water in the bath the medium will be as wet as possible. There is absolutely no need for any form of recirculation when it comes to keeping conditions right for the plants and microbes. As much as I am behind the idea of a recirculated OBBT I want to make it absolutely clear that a recirc system will not make the OBBT perform any better. The basic OBBT already has everything it needs to squeeze maximum performance from organic nutes. Adding a recirc will do nothing to improve this performance. The best possible recirc upgrade would be one that messed with how the OBBTs run the least. Just want to keep things clear. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

Thanks for letting a newb entertain a couple of thoughts.

It's not the quantity of air that I'm exploring. As you say, you don't need much, and I understand that. What I'm looking at is the even-ness of the air distribution. I think I'm envisioning a much more dense root ball that would inhibit even airflow up the system to the organic layer. I have this mental image of air bubbles rising in a very narrow channel, limiting exposure to air somewhere else.

I have to keep in mind that the majority of the root ball is moist but still exposed to air. The O2 in the air is a lot higher concentration than the O2 in the water will ever be. The primary source of O2 is the air in this system, no?

Yea, you need to get this whole "root ball" image out of your head. The idea of a thick wad of ventricle roots all tied and tangled together is something that comes from the world of hydro. DWC, NFT, aeroponics and the like generate these kinds of silly root-mass pictures. An OBBT plant has no such thing. Roots are evenly distributed throughout the root zone with perhaps a higher concentration down in the bath because there is more room. The roots grip the rock and get all distributed throughout.

Because of this the air stone is not going to cut a channel and bubble straight up. That isn't how air works silly man! Air in a pressurized system seeks areas of lower pressure. That makes the air pumped into the OBBT break up into millions of tiny bubbles which all individually seek their own path to the surface. They wind and diffuse totally evenly throughout the medium. When you run one you can actually feel it. Place your hand above the medium in various locations and you can feel the air working its way up. You can feel this across the whole medium, not just in one little area.

I know the bubble setup might seem inadiquate when compared to DWC or other hydro kits that use air stones, but the setup I reccomend is more than fine for OBBTs. Do not worry about the big root ball or clogged stones OK? This is now my personal experience talking and I am telling you that there is nothing to be done to improve air distrobution in the OBBT. It has been accounted for.

That is one of the big reasons I call for at least 3 inches of bath. Thats why I prefer lava rock. They all conspire to break up the oxygen and send it wooshing off in all directions. You are over-thinking things big-time my man. Why don't you smoke one and relax?

I know you are really excited about this automation stuff that citizen024 has been going on about, so am I, but don't get caught up in it as a small gardener. If you wanna run 3 plants then just to what RipVanWeed or Silver_Surfer_OG have done. Rig up a basic OBBT from the materials you have on hand and give it a try. IF you make it to the end of that grow and still think that the system needs improvement with better bubbling or recirculation or whatever than have at it. However I think that once you've run a basic OBBT you won't be bothered enough about changing it having seen the results. Sorry to shoot you down man, but I gotta let the good people here know that the OBBT is stable and mature. For the small gardener it doesn't need major design changes.

As for your questions, black 5 gallon buckets will be great. 1/2 inch drains and fittings will be pleanty.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[rrog]

OK. I'll run three pails exactly per the recipe. 1 airstone per pail. Maybe 2.

You had mentioned the advantage of more water (2 gals per pail) and so did LadyL. Clearly this method has been done a gazillion times so I won't worry.

Am I brewing teas in 5 gallon pails or smaller? I'm making one big pail order.

Thanks for the patient reply.

 

[GivaDogaBone]

What about a blue 55 gal drum?

What about a blue 55 gal drum?


I have been laid off and I have at least 6 months of sitting around time. So anyways.

I would like to give your OBBT method a try, and would like your esteemed guidance.

Building the "Tub".

My understanding of the system and in conjunction with local available supplies, I would as follows.

1) Using a rotozip, cut barrel top, off at 2/3, having ?? inches from bottom of barrel to top. It could be up to 36 inches tall.

2) From the bottom, add a drain with screen, elbow, tee, and valve.

3) Build a 2x4 frame support, so barrel is supported and piping is not smashed, giving me 10 inches of height from floor to barrel bottom.

4) Run air lines and 2 x 12 inch air stones, with strong air pump. Add water and test for leaks.

5) Add Red lava rock up to....

Can you recommend depth of rock, and depth of soil so I know how tall to cut the barrel.


I'll try to take and post a pic when completed. I'll ask about the soil mix later.
Thanks a bunch.

 

[rrog]

GiveaDog, what barrel are you starting with? A 5 gallon pail works well.

 

[GivaDogaBone]

Can you see it?

Can you see it?

 

[rrog]

Wow. That's quite the large barrel. You're using these because they're available?

 

[GivaDogaBone]

Yes, and because I understand that the larger the tub, the more steady the PH. Is this wrong?

 

[rrog]

I'm not the guy to say, that's for sure. May not be the case with the the OBBT since there are no nutes, per say.

 

[Citizen024]

Howdy gang!

My this has gotten exciting hasn't it? Look at all the activity. Dang. I am thinking at some point once things are a bit more solid that we hit up Big Toke and some of the other folks that are into similar things. Those guys have a LOT of practical experience, and their inputs might be helpful. Plus they might get into building or telling folks about it . .

I want to talk about how to make a air manifold. I am going to have to run 25 lines per tray. I would prefer to do this off as few large pumps as possible (and definately not a shit ton of small pumps). It sounds like some sort of manifold is needed. I think someone who has done a large DWC might have done something like that. Matter of fact I know it has been done.

I agree most fully with what DM is saying. In the smaller (10 or less) application there is really no reason to complicate yourself and build a recirc system like I am trying to do. The recirc, etc. is not to make it run BETTER (well, it could make it less maintenance, but its so little already- while adding complexity), it is to allow it to run MORE. Basic rule: "keep it simple stupid".

For my needs (10+) and the needs of many other folks it is too tedious to maintain that many individual baths. Yes, they could simply be put in trays and hand water, which would then drain out the tray to a common drain. But if you have more then say 30 this starts to become more and more work- and one of the great things about a bio system is that it can be much less work. Here we add the complexity to get simpler operation.

Is it clear now the distinction? If you can't see it it probably sounds like we contradict ourselves at certain times, and I could understand the confusion.

What I am doing is to make simple ways of applying the theory to a larger scale. I am combining certain aspects of several other proven systems (bio buckets, NFT, DWC) to do this. Although the heart of it is the same as OBBT DM/LL designs, the means/application is entirely different. I have added a number of things indeed. I was already working in this direction before I ever came on here, this was the last piece to completing a puzzle.

And much credit and respect to those two for putting here in public view and all the time and energy they have spent on it.

Likewise wherever I may go with what I am working on is for all you to have as well.

----------------------------------------------------

It is important it seems to clarify how and what the recirc is doing for us, and why I am employing it.

DM and I see to see it all fairly clear- but that is because we both have seen and understand how a bioponic system works. The thing is actually quite simple and makes clear sense. It is just different then any other grow system, so you have to get familiar with it.

1) The recirc is to even out the water/nutrient/O2 in the bath water distribution. ALL the tubs are balancing to eachother. Nice and even. If I have a hungry or thirsty plant, the entire system will support it.

2) It keeps the water level in the bath the same all the time in all places. That means I don't have to monitor that at all. It also produces an aero/NFT/DWC aspect to this.

The roots will grow down into this highly oxygenated constantly level nutrient rich solution in the bath/tray and go APESHIT!!!!

I can also simply turn it off my water feed and the pump that runs it up to the tray, and let the tray run dry just like DM does.

I have total control of the water very easily. IF the shit hit the fan even, I can drain the whole thing and start over solution wise. However the microbes/medium will just keep doing whatever they are doing, and there won't be much I can do to change that.

3) When plants drink up water, they will NOT lower the tray depth, instead the small reservoir that this is recirc through will drop. This means that I can control ALL the individual tubs from that single res. I can add a float valve to a water source (tap probably, just like bio buckets) that keeps the reservoir at a constant depth, filling as it lowers. That means I don't have to water again . . ever. Even if I don't put a float valve on, by simply maintaining the res level manually I am taking care of the whole tray at once.


4) Since the water level is being controlled, and water is being added automatically all I really have to do is monitor how the nutrients are being used and what the microlife is up to. I intend to pump up my medium before I put it in with amendments. In the near future I am going to discuss my amendment plans, and get some feedback from y'all. If we have 25 plants all living together, they are going to eat plenty. How this does PH wise has yet to be tested. Likewise, it might be better to use "rawer" water based organic nutrients for control. Amendments can't be taken back, if something goes wrong (which it can) they are there and thats that. That is why I don't currently use them in my coco drip systems.

But the res lets me do something really clever. I can add nutrient teas, bootled whatver, raw finely powdered amendments. Whatever. I can add it to the res and have it circulate through the entire system and balance out evenly. I can also monitor ppm, and get an idea of what level its like to run at. While organcis are not measured the same as salts with ppm, they are consistant to themselves. By watching carefully, over time I can figure out my systems unique parameters and actually control it pretty closely by what I add when. This is exactly how bio-buckets work.

5) All this allows me to raise numerous plants in one bath.

I am taking full advantage of the mircobes to do the rest of the work for me, as we have heard so much about.

As for all the confusion about fabric. Forget it, too complex- I have found a better way. I am moving onto the idea of multiple tubs in one big bath. It is much simplier, more sound, allows for plants to potentially be moved or removed from the system easier.

AND I am really really stoked about one other thing about the multi-tub plan: it can be done with a standard exsisting 2x3, 4x4, 3x6, 4x8 tray. No custom building. Most are around 7"s in depth. We are talking a 4" flood, with a couple more inches of rocks. Totally convertible. Not only is that great for me, but it means this thing to take off like cotton candy if people catch wind of how easy it can be. There is basically almost no modifacations if you have a exsisting ebb and flow set up.

I am still looking for the perfect container size. I want those damn 4gal square buckets!!! I gaffed some a long time ago from behind a Costco.

 

[Citizen024]

GivaDog: DON'T hack a perfectly nice (and pricey) 55 gallon barrel up for one of these!! So not necessary!!! Just go get a big rubbermaid.

I don't agree that a larger res makes a more stable PH when it comes to bio systems. In traditional hydroponic systems your absolutely correct. Actually it can be the inverse with bioponic. Too large a res creates too much for them to manage. There needs to be sufficient biomass (microbes) ratio to the solution.

 

[solarpowered_ca]

rrog i found 16litre black pots from our local grow shop (without holes) good. I drilled a hole thru the bottom and placed a irrigation fitting that has a washer both sides with a threaded screw to tighten underneath and a rubber cap on the top with hole in.. It was needful to apply some sealant between the washer and underneath b4 tightening. I attach black flexible hosing to this and a on off tap .I place another 16 litre pot upside down with a hole drilled thru the base for this piping to go thru into pot underneath and drilled about half way down another hole for the tap and hose to fit thru. I can then drain the liquid completely out of OBBT each week when necesary or flush etc with fresh water very easily. ( as you can see i dont have a camera) . The units are easy to work with and only require weekly caring for . I enjoy being with my plants so its always a pleasure to be able to do some sort of caring for them. The OBBT doesnt seem to require very much effort at all once its established. Especially if you follow the initial set up that Drunkenmessiah described with a week of feed followed by a week of water and fasting. Its got complicated now due to the developement of other posts for speculation on how to grow a 100 plants with this system which I dont think was the initial idea of the thread at all. (However interesting it may be its possibly best to master a simple one pot system first).

 

[Citizen024]

I am going right for putting 6 into one tray for my first attempt. I have played with hydroponics for a long time (obviously) and am comfortable doing so. I wouldn't say doing so is the right path for everyone, please stay with keeping it simple at first and doing how DM has suggested if your even the slightest uncomfortable with how these things work.

Solarpowered: What your taking about is SO exactly what I am after!! Shifting time from needing to manage a system, to really only needing to take care of the plants. And being able to do other things with ones life. .

 

[rrog]

The rectangular containers fit together more efficiently, then? I can fit three standard pails, so I'll likely go that route.

Also if anyone can answer: Should I get black pails for brewing "teas" etc? If I'm growing three plants, should the Tea Pails be 3 gallon, 5 gallon? I'm buying supplies and running with three of the original OBBTs

 

[solarpowered_ca]

two issues that I have found. One caused me to have to completely rebuild at my first attempt ( including having to empty out the "living soil" and restart the incubation pariod all over again) were the clay balls blocking the drain hose completely. and my tap underneath was cheap hydro store taps and continued to drip and drip . The drip I fixed by adding a small amount of hose to the tap with a stopper in the end. To stop the clay balls filling and blocking the outlet drain hose I turned upside down a hydro net basket and placed it over the hole in the base of the bucket and carefully poured the clay balls all around it and covered it completely creating a screen . These are the only difficulties I have had with building my system as of date .I thought it may be useful to mention. The overflow drain was easy as it required only a grommet and small joiner or elbow irrigation fitting .

 

[rrog]

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...SPlastic&category_name=20328&product_id=20959

Square pails if anyone's interested

Interesting that they are backordered on premium 5 gallon pails... in black. hahahaha wonder where they're all going??

 

[ripman]

Hey there, thanks for the impressive thread, it really has cool ideas!
It got me thinking so much, I'd like it to be my next system. What I would like to ask here, is how you would score the solutions I would like to use...

Basically, I was thinking to make a vertical grow with 2 reflectorless 250w CMH in a 2'*3'*7' closet.
The setup would be like this:
- 2'*3'*0,5' plastic box with cover. Used as an enclosure to make water run in it.
- six 12" circular vases, 1 foot high. Here I was considering to use smartpots, what do you think about them? Would they work for this technique or they may let air disperse instead of going through soil?
- 3 feet neoprene airstone inside each smartpot, with a 6 plugs 210 gallon per hour air pump... is this too powerful or the more the better?
- to fill the plastic box and keep water always level with beginning of soil, I'd use one or two smartvalves from autopots
- I was considering as well a water pumps at the bottom of the box to be used with a timer to periodically empty the water and let the hydro roots breathe even more (for periods like 10-15 minutes... what would you think about it? Could it be useful or would it make no difference, even harm the growth?

So what would you say about a system like this? If you say it could work super, I'm going to build it, so I can document one real cool grow!

Hey guys I guess that with all the excitement about Citizen's system my post went kind of unread
Sorry for bumping it but can anybody help me as well?
I'd really like to contribute with the system of mine, just need some quick answer, especially about the use of smartpots... if you don't know about them, here is a link http://www.smartpots.com/