Need recommendations

[icmagacc24]

Hello!

I'm about to set up a box, 90x65x185cm (~36x26x73"), to grow a single plant by scrog.
But I really don't know which led panels to use. There are many, and I think these three are one of the best, however I cannot decide between them, could you help me?

Hans Panel (http://www.bonsaihero.com/ledgrow.html):
10x Osram LH-CPDP Hyper Red
2x Cree XBD White
4x Cree XBD Royal Blue
17x Cree XBD Red
---------------
33 leds, 56W
4 of them in the box, so 224W total led power

Culturelux M30 (http://sanlight.info/DE/Infos.html):
5x Osram LH CP7P Hyper Red
7x Osram LUW CR7P Streetwhite
1x Osram LB CP7P Blue
2x Osram LR CP7P Red
3x Osram LA CP7P Amber
1x LEDengin LZ100R300 Hyper Red
---------------
19 leds, 30W
9-12 of them in the box, so 270-360W total led power

Area 51 SGS-160 (http://area51lighting.com/the160.html):
48x Cree XPG Outdoor White
24x Cree XPE Red
---------------
72 leds, 155W
2 of them in the box, so 310W total led power

I have no idea which of these would work best, currently I would prefer the hans panel because it got updated just a month ago and has reflectors (and not lenses).
Sorry that I didn't mention the wavelengths of all those leds, but that confuses me anyways because there are always multiple specifications?!
Price is secondary, and I would also go with a completely different panel if it's better than those.

Happy for any qualified comment

Thanks!

 

[Neekz]

I would definitely go for the SGS above the others for your set-up. With all that vertical space, and having so much veg combined with an even canopy (SCROG...) you will definitely need something with lens on it.

 

[icmagacc24]

But why? I would use multiple of the other panels so they would cover the whole area. Also, I would go pretty close to the tops (probably about 20cm/~8").

 

[Neekz]

I would go with the other choices mainly for a low veg, SOG (As low plant height, and un-even canopy, are better suited to the smaller unit's shown.). Even doing that you won't really be able to tweak the light canopy so much as you would think, unless you want a rat's nest of panel's blocking each other wasting light. For a large plant height (You got 4ft of actual bud "grow" space...) and an even canopy (You mentioned SCROG...) you are gonna want a wide coverage, penetrating panel. Let me reffer you to what Area51 has to say about lens systems.

"You'll notice (Without a lens) that a lot of the intensity is emitted practically sideways, and also a good amount that is emitted in such a way that it will need to be reflected back towards the plants, thus losing a lot of its intensity along the way.

A typical "90°" unlensed LED will have roughly 20% of it's intensity emitting between 120-180°, and another 20% emitting between 90-120°.

So, you have almost a 40% loss of light using unlensed 90° LEDs.

Now lets sidetrack for a moment.

A typical glass face found on many LED panels will absorb roughly 10-20% of anything that is emitted through it. Higher quality glass will absorb less.

A typical secondary LED lens will absorb roughly 10-20% as well, and higher quality lenses will absorb less, as little as 5-10%. Ours absorbs 7-8%.

So, with that said, you sacrifice let's say a 10% loss, but to save 40% of the light that would never make it to the plant. And also redirecting the remaining light straight into the canopy so the light has less distance to travel to get to the leaves. Having an oversized panel offsets the coverage a great deal.

Even narrower unlensed LEDs at 60° will have plenty of light that won't make it to the plants and a decent amount that will need to be reflected first before arriving to the leaves.

The longer the light has to travel, the less intense it becomes. Lenses not only saves what will be emitted sideways, but gets the light to the leaves over a shorter distance, not having to rely on reflection.

Some companies like to use 120° unlensed LEDs because the coverage seems good in theory, but has very little penetration, even if the lamp draws over 700w at the plug.

So, with all that said, we will always use lenses."

Even with the un-lensed panels that close, you will still have over a third of the light hitting the walls. The SGS should do fine for that area.

 

[icmagacc24]

But I'm gonna use reflection foil everywhere, also the area 51 light got only two different leds, and wider spectrum = healthier plant, not? Mhm...

 

[Neekz]

I don't like that fact either about the area51, but whites allow you to cover some blue and other spectrums. Some of the best performing manufacturers use only white, red, and blue (Lumigrow...). Par numbers will give you a better idea on performance than spectrum, regardless, so go with what's better by number's IMO. With the higher current diodes like Lumi's (1000mA+...), their intensity and output is increased making up for that 40% area51 talked about that is lost and needs to be reclaimed when using lower current diodes via secondary lens. Here's a breakdown on what you asked, the hans panel putting out say 900/uMols at 12", even with the walls reflecting is still only 900/uMols at 12", 450 at 18" etc... The SGS has 1216/uMols at 12" , 777/uMols at 18" etc, and still has enough side light to cover a wide enough area. Using lens, they make better use of the light, even if it's in a fixed pattern, and seemingly limited spectrum, you will find it grow's well, a bit leafy from what I have seen, as White's tend to make tighter nodes/more fan's...

 

[Neekz]

Here is a interesting chart I found on what good secondary optic's can do to the par of various color fixture's (Mainly all white...).

That is for a 5000k all white fixture using 15 Phillip's Lumiiled's drawing 16w's (Similar color to SGS's Cree's, just not as powerful output, Ie lower current.

That kelvin of white is pretty Heavy in the PAR range if you ask me...

 

[ellydee]

2 Area51 sgs-160 would dominate your space.
I own 4 of them and 2 of the newest Hans lamps.
You will get deeper penetration with the Area51.
Area51 lamps will be getting an upgrade within a few months.

 

[Neekz]

2 Area51 sgs-160 would dominate your space.

Yeah I was gonna say it seemed a bit overkill, 2 should be capable of an elbow for sure...

 

[Heeb]

Apollo led is made in America and has a 15' beam angle and supposedly penetrates better. The white with a few reds tests the best. I would only use led for a small garden as I do not believe they work well. I wish someone would prove me wrong because I would love to be able to use them with good results.

 

[FiltruFRATE]

Apollo led is made in America and has a 15' beam angle and supposedly penetrates better. The white with a few reds tests the best. I would only use led for a small garden as I do not believe they work well. I wish someone would prove me wrong because I would love to be able to use them with good results.

Most probably the chips are built in China and the panels are assembled in USA. Ledengin, for example, which is a USA based company builds its chips in China/Philipines. The "Made in China" stamp shouldn't be too much of a concern if the chips are from a known brand (Cree, OSRAM, Philips etc.).

 

[WuMan]

Hi icmagacc24,

I know that this thread is already pretty old...
I was thinking of switching to the M30s also for a long time but they are damn expensive if you want to light up a certain area!!!
So I decided to buy only two of them and start a test.
My test (0,6x1,2m; 1 Chronic; 2x30Watt) is almost over now and I can recommend these small bastards! Of course only if money is no problem!

Cherio

 

[stonytoon]

Hi,
@icmagacc24 What panel have you bought?

@WuMan Do you have a report or pics in the www or here? I couldn't find some.
May you can post some pics here? Would be nice.

Thanks to both of you, stonytoon

 

[WuMan]

Hey,
sorry for late respond - I have no report but here are some pictures:

 

[WuMan]

...it was a motherplant - with cut off top which is not so cool with Chronic.
Due to very low temperature (15 to max. 22°C) and low distance to LED I had some purple tops.



Actual power draw was 56 Watt - yield was 62g
I´m in love

Cheers

 

[stonytoon]

Nice,
thank you.

 

[FiatLuxLab]

Here is a interesting chart I found on what good secondary optic's can do to the par of various color fixture's (Mainly all white...).

View Image

Based on this, could you do away with blue LEDs and use more white? Perhaps a few in the cooler temp range to make up for the blues?