My plants are very upset

[Daemon]

Hey y'all,
Some of you know me, most don't. I'm an experienced outdoor grower who recently started growing indoors. I've been having great success thus far, with virtually no problems! BUT, no matter how good you are, things sometimes still come up. I've never, ever had any deficiencies when growing outdoors so I have no idea what they look like(though I have been reading this forum A LOT for the past few days).

So, here's what is going on. I have 4 Kaya(fem), and 3 Big Bang(clones), in ProMix with a little MG Organic Choice(I know, I know), and a little worm castings thrown in. All of the plants started showing some nasty looking yellowing and brown spots on the bottom leaves. It gets worse until the leaf finally falls off, and then it seems to move up to the next set of leaves! The new growth looks fine in the Kayas, which are still in veg. The Big Bangs(two weeks into flower), are showing the same problem but also have some weird looking light green splotches all over the new growth. I'm very confused, though I think the problems with the bottom leafs looks just like a phosphorus lockout. You tell me....

How long has this problem been going on?
2-3 weeks for the Kaya, 4 weeks on the Big Bang
What STRAIN are you growing?
Kaya(fem), and Big Bang
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
seed for Kaya, clone for Big Bang
What is the age of your plants?
Kaya - 45 days from seed, Big Bang - 50 days
How Tall are the plants?
about 1.5 feet
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
Kaya are in veg, Big Bang in flower
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
none
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)
1/2 gallon grow bags, one Kaya is in a 2 gallon bag
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)
ProMix for Containers. Maybe 20% MG Organic Choice and 10% Worm Castings
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
FoxFarm 3 part; Kaya gets 2tsp Grow Big+1tbsp Big Bloom/gallon every watering. The Big Bangs were on the same and are now on 2tsp Tiger Bloom+1tbsp Big Bloom/gallon every watering.
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
no idea.
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
about 6.0, though I don't often check it.
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
GH Liquid test
How often are you watering?
every 3-4 days
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?
Last feeding was on Monday
What size bulb are you using?
2' T5 for veg, 250w HPS+T5 for flower
What is the distance to the canopy?
maybe 5" for veg, 8" for flower
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)
about 35% with light on, and 35-45% with light off(veg)
What is the canopy temperature?
about 77F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
Day=75-80F, Night=65-70F
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Plenty, but not sure how much in veg. Flower room has a 170cfm inline fan and oscillating fan.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
in the veg room, yes.
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
it stays moist for about a day or two after watering.
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
using R.O. on Kaya, tap on Big Bang. I think it's hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water?
Distilled? Mineral Water?
R.O.
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
no
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
no
Are plant's infected with pest's?
no



Here is a pic(not mine), that details almost exactly what the lower leafs look like, only they are bit more yellow(almost a lime green color):

This pic shows what the top leafs on the Big Bang look like(though they are a little more splotchy and more widespread:

EDIT: I just saw this thread, and my bottom leafs look very similar to this(and they also fall off):
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=88830

 

[phatnuggetz]

well first off, a 1/2 gallon grow bags.... dude that is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to small. usually when it comes to indoors and soil, a good rule o thumb is 1 gallon per month you expect to grow your plant, so 3 gallons is common for 1 month veg 2 months flower. Very possible your rootbound for sure by now. Another thing,how often do you flush? remeber in container gardens its alot easier to get nute lockout. Thats what the second pics reminds me of the start of lockout.

 

[easyrasta]

nute burn.
You need to flush the hell out of them
you are burning them and will kill them if you dont flush
good luck.
Ez

 

[stinkyattic]

Just out of curiosity, what is your re-potting schedule? Did you start them in those large pots? If not, how long have they been in those pots? They look to me like a couple things are wrong. One is overwatering or poor water retention (too retentive). Another is a calcium deficiency (first pic).
This makes sense considering the information you have given- a few things stick out to me:
-RO water
-A peat based mix (both promix and MG organic fit the bill)
-Smallish pot size for the plant size
-Low runoff pH
This combination can cause problems.

I see you are using tap water on one of them. Is the runoff from that plant significantly higher pH than that of the one on which you are using RO water?

Here's the thing. ProMix and MGO are both peat. Both are buffered before packaging with lime (Calcium carbonate). When you first 'wet' your soil, you start the clock ticking for 3 things to happen: The peat begins to break down into finer particles. The lime gets used up by the naturally acidic peat reacting with the lime buffer. The calcium gets used by the plants as well.
What you will see after from 6-10 weeks depending on what you are watering with (among other things) is that your runoff pH numbers will start to drop off, indicating that the buffering capacity built into the packaged medium has been used up. You will also see the water retention properties change, although with the growth of your plant, it's hard to tell because larger plants use water faster.

You can prevent this from damaging your plants:
-Using RO water, add CalMAg plus to both help buffer the pH and giv ethe plants the calcium they crave.
-Add perlite before use so that as the particle size diminishes, the drainage isn't affected as badly.
-Plan to re-pot into a slightly larger container every 4-6 weeks, whether or not you look at the plant and say, 'dayum that thing is too big for its pot'.
-Use tap water that you have taken to the grow shop for them to stick an EC meter in and tell you what your background hardness is. If it's quite soft, run calmag anyway.

 

[Daemon]

Excellent advice, thanks. I have been doing 2-5 gallon pots for most of my indoor plants, with absolutely no problems. I tried the 1/2 gallon containers because a trusted grower friend told me that it's a great way to keep the size down. No?

As for them being nute burned, seriously? I didn't start with the nute levels Im using now, I've worked up to them. Do you really think that's what it is?

Well, I went ahead and flushed them with 1.5 gallons of water, phed to 6.2, each and then repotted them into 2 gallon grow bags. One thing - when I took them out of the 1/2 gallon grow bags they were not rootbound. There were roots coiled on the bottom and they looked healthy, although small. I was a bit off too, the plants are only 1.2 feet tall

I used a 50/50 mix of FFOF/ProMix to repot so I'm hoping that does a little better. They still look wonderful up top but the bottom leaves are yellowing(a very light yellow).

We'll have to wait and see what happens, but I do have another question:

Since I repotted with 50/50 FFOF/ProMix when should I feed them again? I should note that I hydrated the soil before repotted and the root ball was still soaked from being flushed. I could probably let the soil dry out well(maybe 5-7 days due to the pot size), water once more with RO, and then start nutes again the next watering? Does that sound right? I figured since the FFOF will have some nutes it's no big deal to wait to feed them, I want to make sure everything is flushed out.

Perhaps I should start feeding only every other watering?

 

[phatnuggetz]

alright so your plants are 50 days old, you planted them in ffof/promix wich has a rich nutrient base to start. When i used ffof i would feed them only pure water and add some liquid karma plus add mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria. So if you started feeding your plants 2 weeks into them sprouting, i suspect you added fertilizer to soil and roots that didnt need them yet, do you have a good amount of run off coming out of the bottom of your pots each time you feed? if not, the extra fertilizer you added that wasnt being used probably went staggnant and bad wich caused some sort of nutrient lockout. wich is different then overfetilization. Do you use clearex? its a great product to use for periodic flushing, it will cure your lockout problem if thats the case. Plus it has glucose and sucrose wich are food for beneficials! plus another thing, if your plant is 50 days old even from seed, it should be way bigger then 1 foot tall, do you use beneficial fungi and such? co2? are you growing a short indica strain? casue thats 7 weeks of growing, your plants should be monsters if your doing it right. anyways i hope you solve your problem! best of luck to you

 

[Daemon]

^^I think you misread my post.

They were in ProMix/MG OC originally and just repotted into FFOF/ProMix lastnight.

And I never said anything about feeding them 2 weeks after they sprouted?

I was, in my last post, talking about feeding them after the flush/repot.

As for the size, I am told this is fairly common with Kaya. They may only be 1.2ft tall, but good god are they bushy! I have honestly never seen plants this bushy and with such tight node spacing. I've been playing around with outdoor plants for a while and this all seems perfectly normal to me.

 

[stinkyattic]

If you are running RO, add calmag even when you aren't 'feeding' per se. I don't consider it fertilizer personally- consider it the additive to make 'fake tap water'.
RE-potting often helps in and of itself, even if the rootbound condition isn't severe. Your plants will appreciate the fresh soil.
You say you are pHing to 6.2? I would not go that low with a medium that is known to already have its buffering used up. Peat moss sits around pH 5 and your medium will DROP over time; therefore, in a peat soil, I like to pH to the TOP of the ideal pH range for the medium, allowing a significant drop before problems become apparent.

 

[Daemon]

^^Excellent advice, I hadn't thought about that. I will try raising the PH a bit and see how that goes.

Anyone have any thoughts on when to start feeding again?

 

[phatnuggetz]

were the hell did i get you startd feeding 2 weeks into sprouting.... haha i must have confused it for another post i had just read.... it sounds like kaya is similiar to purple urkel then, really tight node spacing and bushy.

 

[stinkyattic]

Anyone have any thoughts on when to start feeding again?

Assuming that your plants are old enough to require any nutes, a general rule is to actually do a light feeding (1/4-1/2 strength) immediately after a flush, as part fo the complete flush routine, to replace what was washed out. Just remember to check the pH of this fert solution so you don't screw up what you worked so hard to fix!