My head is spinning with grow cab/closet options....help me focus.

[Hawk]

[note: I hope I haven't sabotaged my chances of getting advice by making too long a post with too many questions! ]

My head is spinning! I need advice on what key points I should be focusing on. There are so many choices to make, all with ups/downs. I've been reading a lot and my newbie assessment is: Go "big" on lighting (I'm speaking relatively) and yields/quality go up but heat issues become a dominating factor. Tackle the heat issues with appropriate techniques/ventilation and noise rears its ugly head. Try and deal with all the issues effectively and cost/complexity spin out of control....etc. etc. I can deal with comparing brands of equipment but choosing the fundamental design and components for the whole setup is hard.

Mostly, I just don't want to invest resources into a plan that turns out to not fit my situation or is just way over my head. I'm not in any particular hurry. I want to do it RIGHT, not necessarily do it NOW--although I'm ready as soon as I figure out what's right.


My environment: Closet in 12'x12' spare bedroom with central air.

--The closet has one of those dual sliding doors that overlap one another. Total closet space is 70"W x 23"D x 108"H. I'd like to actually use 44"W x 22"D x 62"H in which I would construct a cab. That's ~6 & 3/4 sf total with ~35cf. I'd like some of that to be a separate flouro veg area. The closet very closely matches this:
[apparently I can't post pictures yet]

--Ambient room temps are 76-78 degrees F for much of the day, much of the year. Central air conditioning cost in my climate is an issue. I can't really keep the whole house at 72f all day long. In the winter, yes. In the summer, no.

--I can vent to the attic through the closet ceiling. I don't really want to have to do that but realize it may be necessary.

--Stealth is a concern. I'm willing to make vent mufflers and fan sound suppression boxes if that's what it takes. I'd like to have a guest in the room and pass off the noise with my computer + a desk fan + maybe a quiet radio. Is that possible?

--I'd like as much quality yield as my space will allow (duh!). But I really don't need very much yield. Truth is, I would still go through with an inexpensive build plan for a couple oz per year. I envision not wanting to grow year round. Sorta on again off again as the months roll by. I'd rather have one or two really nice crops per year then need to go one crop after another to produce anything decent. I should note that I have no known predisposition for being a good green-thumb.

--I would spend maybe $750 for the right setup (some shop bought, some DIY). I don't want to spend that much but if I can have a QUIET and HIDDEN 400w HID system (soil, at least at first) that serves me well into the future, I'll pay for it. If I can get good bud with a simpler, easier setup for far less $$$ than I'd take that compromise.



I was thinking of doing an air cooled hood in a 44"W x 22"D x 62"H cab with a 400w HID vented to the attic. The exhausting fan (fans?) would be housed in the attic for noise purposes. To make the ducting run (20ft? 25ft?), pull thru the hood, and blow through a scrubber, and have a chance at keeping temps in check I suspect I'll need to move some serious air. 450cfm through a six incher? Maybe a second lower output inline for additional exhausting of the cab? I like the 340cfm Panasonic inline but am afraid my attic temps will kill it (install manual says 140f max for install location).

I'm really concerned about heat. I've got close to 200w of cfl's on a couple of seedlings in the closet at the moment. I've got all kinds of air movement, a humidifier, the closet door opened, and temps are still 2 or 3 degrees above ambient near the plants. This makes me think 400w HID is just going to be too hard for me to keep cool. What does it take to stay 2-3 degrees above ambient (when ambient is say 76f) with a ~5 square foot floor, 5 foot high cab?

Am I better off with a 250w HID? Is there a big difference in heat? Or maybe a 150w HID with less daunting cooling requirements is a better fit for me. I could easily vent into a bathroom closet that shares a wall with this closet and then use the existing bathroom exhaust fan to vent outside. But then I'm worried about the exhaust fan noise for the cab (not the bathroom) since that fan wouldn't be in the attic. Maybe I could muffle it enough? Maybe I could veg for a bit under flouros and go straight to 12/12 HID so I could keep exhaust noise down for much of the day? Should I just stick with a 150w HID setup so I can learn and then upgrade once I know what I'm dealing with? Or does it only take a little extra work/effort to just go bigger to start. Like I said, I'm willing to take the time and spend the money (as long as it's not going to be tooooo much) for a premium setup if it makes sense. And that's about when I start getting lost among the choices because I have no experience with how different setups actually behave heat-wise, noise-wise, and yield-wise....

Thanks.

 

[Pharma Geddon]

Have the exhaust fan somewhere between the grow and the attic if you're worried about the attic temps. It's the whoosh of air that makes most of the noise.

In your situation I'd say regular ducting is out. If you can, solid ducting, or as much as possible solid with acoustic ducting for the awkward bits. If the 25' length was in a straight line, that's a HUGE amount better than it going twisty twisty. Think about how the warm air wants to move as you're fitting it, best if the ducting gives it a gentle nudge rather than force it round tight corners or downwards at any stage.

Ducting as short as possible, as straight as possible, bends as gentle as possible. No ridges.

For the exhaust fan, a 6" high power version plus variac for a zero noise speed control. Slowing the 6" down to what you need is much quieter than having a smaller fan running full speed for the same airflow. My 6" RVK will run at 25% of mains, haven't tried it lower, some fans refuse to run if the voltage gets too low so I'd say an 8" fan might be too much. I thought mine wasn't running at 25% so stuck my hand in to give the blades a spin, feeling the breeze on my hand saved me.

8" ducting plus reducers will be even quieter if you can manage it.

Build the cab then fit the fan, filter and ducting. Hang 4 x 100w incandescents in there and play with the variac. You'll soon know if it can handle a 400w hid. Don't trust the temp readings until the bulbs have been running 2 hours. If ok, how about using CMH? They run cooler than hps and the quality of bud is said to be higher. If temps are way high after 2 hours at full power, test again with close to 250w of incandescents.

For the ballast, resin sealed magnetic. Uber reliable and silent.

 

[fatal1]

I feel your pain...

Not trying to confuse you more, but with your requirements, you may also want to look into T5 set ups. There are some guys in the 'micro grow room' getting respectable numbers from them. Not to mention the less heat produced/less noise from those. You may also want to think about doing larger winter grows (with HPS) and small summer grows (With T5) This way, you can have good bud all year while "fine tuning" your strain, soil, and setup. Hell, once you get everything dialed in you can run them both together. But then again I'm just a dude who loves to read (ICmag) and tries to get the most bang for my buck.

If you get bored, take a stroll to the 'Micro Grow' section of the site. I assure you there are some guy's there doing anything but "micro" growing.

Best thing about this forum and me being a newbee is that I learn something everyday. If I don't learn something I'm stimulated to think about alternative ways to make my set-up better. I love it.

 

[FreezerBoy]

My cabs 22x29x54 inches. When I ran a 150, a 76 cfm axial fan was enough to cool. It wasn't silent but, the tiny whrr of the fan with the faint hum of ballast combined for a perfect sound to come from an old freezer. The right noise however, is no good unless it comes from the right place. You'll want the cab and computer, or aquarium or radio next to one another.

As much as I rail against inlines in stealth apps, if you can go through the attic, do it. Anyone in the room with the fan will KNOW it's there. But, how many people hang out in your attic? I can hear my inline all the way to the street when the garage doors open. It's faint but, it's there some 30 feet away. Inside the house, 5 feet away, I can't hear anything. With an inline you should have little trouble with a 250. A 400 may be pushing things.

Design wise, look in the "club" threads. I know there are 150 and 250 clubs. I think there's a 400. Many of the Grow Diaries list watts in their titles. Read through these till something jumps out and bites you in the eye. The NGB cab rocked my growing world. I threw out everything but the cab, hood and powerstrip and started over from scratch.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm now thinking a 250w would better match my needs/requirements.

It might be unrealistic to think I can work out the whole plan on paper and be sure it will do what I want once installed. I figure once I establish what light I'll use I should just get it so I've got something to build around. Then I can work off a not-set-in-stone plan and make the modifications as dictated by heat/noise tests.

 

[Hawk]

Have the exhaust fan somewhere between the grow and the attic if you're worried about the attic temps. It's the whoosh of air that makes most of the noise.

I've thought about that but if the exhaust fan isn't in the attic I don't know how I'll keep it "unnoticeable" given how much air I anticipate needing to move. I wonder if the Panasonic 340cfm would be quiet enough in the closet with some sound suppression? It's suppose to be 1.7 sones--not that I really know how quiet that is. Alternatively, I wonder how well a Vortex in a sound box holds up to high heat?

In your situation I'd say regular ducting is out. If you can, solid ducting, or as much as possible solid with acoustic ducting for the awkward bits. If the 25' length was in a straight line, that's a HUGE amount better than it going twisty twisty. Think about how the warm air wants to move as you're fitting it, best if the ducting gives it a gentle nudge rather than force it round tight corners or downwards at any stage.

Ducting as short as possible, as straight as possible, bends as gentle as possible. No ridges.

Hadn't thought about rigid ducting. Is rigid better for airflow, noise, or both?

For the exhaust fan, a 6" high power version plus variac for a zero noise speed control. Slowing the 6" down to what you need is much quieter than having a smaller fan running full speed for the same airflow. My 6" RVK will run at 25% of mains, haven't tried it lower, some fans refuse to run if the voltage gets too low so I'd say an 8" fan might be too much. I thought mine wasn't running at 25% so stuck my hand in to give the blades a spin, feeling the breeze on my hand saved me.

8" ducting plus reducers will be even quieter if you can manage it.

Yes, I'm thinking a high performance 6" ~(350cfm plus) is what I want. I won't be surprised if I need lots of air movement. I might even need a separate exhaust fan to supplement the flower area exhausting plus veg area and ballast area exhausting. I don't want any hot air going into the room. My damn computer and CRT monitor already add noticeable heat to the room. I'm trying to account for all my degrees.

Build the cab then fit the fan, filter and ducting. Hang 4 x 100w incandescents in there and play with the variac. You'll soon know if it can handle a 400w hid. Don't trust the temp readings until the bulbs have been running 2 hours. If ok, how about using CMH? They run cooler than hps and the quality of bud is said to be higher. If temps are way high after 2 hours at full power, test again with close to 250w of incandescents.

For the ballast, resin sealed magnetic. Uber reliable and silent.

Yes, testing will be in order. On the CMH, I've read a bit but admit to some skepticism. I'm not fond of the fact that it seems much of the strongest support is coming from persons selling them. And I can't find any mainstream retailers who carry/advertise them. Maybe that means nothing--I dunno. Lower heat is attractive though. BUT, I kinda settled on a digital ballast. It's hard for me to distinguish between the good magnetics and the cheap louder ones other than price. And I figure I'm gonna have to exhaust a fair amount of heat no matter what HID I choose.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Hawk]

I feel your pain...

Not trying to confuse you more, but with your requirements, you may also want to look into T5 set ups. There are some guys in the 'micro grow room' getting respectable numbers from them. Not to mention the less heat produced/less noise from those. You may also want to think about doing larger winter grows (with HPS) and small summer grows (With T5) This way, you can have good bud all year while "fine tuning" your strain, soil, and setup. Hell, once you get everything dialed in you can run them both together. But then again I'm just a dude who loves to read (ICmag) and tries to get the most bang for my buck.

If you get bored, take a stroll to the 'Micro Grow' section of the site. I assure you there are some guy's there doing anything but "micro" growing.

Best thing about this forum and me being a newbee is that I learn something everyday. If I don't learn something I'm stimulated to think about alternative ways to make my set-up better. I love it.

I'm also into bang for buck!

I haven't ruled out a T5 setup. Ultimately, I'd actually like HID + T5 divided into separate chambers within the same box. I just don't think I want a 100% flouro system only. I've already got 192w of CFL's in the closet and even with just that the door must stay open at least 6" and I've got air blowing all over. Point is, I've got to get ANY heat produced out of the room. So I figure why compromise with a 100% flouro grow if I've got to cut through the ceiling anyway.

thanks

 

[Hawk]

My cabs 22x29x54 inches. When I ran a 150, a 76 cfm axial fan was enough to cool. It wasn't silent but, the tiny whrr of the fan with the faint hum of ballast combined for a perfect sound to come from an old freezer. The right noise however, is no good unless it comes from the right place. You'll want the cab and computer, or aquarium or radio next to one another.

As much as I rail against inlines in stealth apps, if you can go through the attic, do it. Anyone in the room with the fan will KNOW it's there. But, how many people hang out in your attic? I can hear my inline all the way to the street when the garage doors open. It's faint but, it's there some 30 feet away. Inside the house, 5 feet away, I can't hear anything. With an inline you should have little trouble with a 250. A 400 may be pushing things.

Design wise, look in the "club" threads. I know there are 150 and 250 clubs. I think there's a 400. Many of the Grow Diaries list watts in their titles. Read through these till something jumps out and bites you in the eye. The NGB cab rocked my growing world. I threw out everything but the cab, hood and powerstrip and started over from scratch.

Yes, I've been looking through the 150 and 250 club threads. They are good reads. But I wish folks would focus more on the equipment and equipment arrangements they used. There's sporadic cab pics but mostly it's "here's what I grew with a 250w".

Your thoughts gave me an idea though. I wonder about building a complete air-handler unit and having it in my garage instead of the attic. My garage still gets blazing hot (130f maybe? in summer). But whatever temp it reaches is not as hot as the attic, that's for sure. The only issue with that is length of the ducting runs required. Up 5' - bend - over 12' - bend -over 35' - bend - down 5'. Something like that. I guess that's just a fan power issue. A pair of 6' ducts with some strong fans? Maybe I could even build the whole air-handler inside an old fridge. I'd have to muffle a lot and whatever sound is left over would need some sort of disguise.

Hmmmmm.....

 

[FreezerBoy]

Well, just to confuse you further with even more stuff to think about ...

Attic Grow with AC http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=83489
The Refriginator http://www.refriginator.com/home.html

I think you'll be happier if you'd think of the cab as a growing thing (pardon the pun) You learn, tech advances, life happens, things change. Building the perfect box first time out is unlikely. I started with the cab which determined everthing else. You can certainly start with lights. Standard practice is 50 watts per sq ft. That will define your footprint. Build the box around it. Seal it, vent it, see what happens.

I'm with you on the cab porn. I know we're here to grow big buds with fat crystals but, those pics do little for me. A well executed cab just tickles me pink. Not what you're interested in doing ... this thread has some truly impressive work http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=64551

 

[Hawk]

That ^ is sweet. I love seeing stuff like that.