Hi there community,
the last couple of weeks I spent lurking and soaking up anything I could find to get me back up to speed.
WARNING
Wall of text ahead... I don't have pictures I can use to soften the blow and I have been told before I am not exactly "concise" with words xD Hope it's still an interesting read for you and I can fill some of you with enthusiasm for my project
This was my first thread on ICmag. I started with strains/genetics/seeds because I can probably acquire them ahead of time/keep an eye out on deals etc.
As you can see I got quite far with my strain questions already but am not 100% set, so feel free to chime in there, if you like.
Now to the project at hand:
GOAL
- Providing me and the missus with exceptional herb for personal use. I want to dab in breeding and try my own crosses along the way. Which means mothers/clones, males and seed production. So I am looking at a perpetual setup.
- Less is more !! --> 150 grams would easily last us a year. So high yields are not required. Sure they aren't bad, especially for my breeding aspirations but they are an afterthought. Quality over quantity is what I am aiming for.
Genetics in mind/strain goal
- As mentioned in the "intro", see my first thread on icmag here for details
- Summarized, I'm looking for a strain with the following characteristics:
Which room though? (here come the questions)
So I recently came into owning a house which is basically why the whole topic came up again in my mind. I will have space gallore. Currently I am looking into 3 rooms in the house and would ask your help to decide which one to use!
Room 1
- 250cm(length)*250(w)*220(h) Own water and electricity supply. 2 small windows, 1 facing the courtyard (which is seperated from the street by a >2 meter high solid metal gate (can't see through). The other one facing a small area where I store firewood.
- Big Plus The room has a toilet and faucet/sink installed so water would also be available. Temperature wise it should be fine but it might get hot in the summer since there is no room above it.
- Big minus The biggest disadvantage (imho) would be that it is right next to the entrance of the house. If the carbon filter ever malfunctions, anybody entering the house would know whats up immediately. The room does however not face, nor have windows to any public property. Just the house entrance is right next to the door of Room 1 :-/
Room 2
- Da basement
My favorite so far. Both water and additional electricity would be easily made available. The room is about 350 cm long, about 300 cm wide and has a height of about 210 cm in the middle. However, it declines towards the side walls, where the height goes as low as 170 cm! There is an about 200 cm wide (and 350 cm long..) area in the middle where the height remains 200-210 cm.
- Big plus It's a basement... There is space, there is cool and controllable temperatures, ventilation and exhaust is easy, water and additional electricity circuits can be brought over from the adjacent rooms. I'm sitting at the "source" for water and electricity, so to speak. Another plus is that I could create a secret room here. There is only 1 window in the room (see "Big minus"..) which could be walled shut and then I could make the room "disappear" to anyone who doesn't have exceptional depth perception and knowledge on how houses and basements are generally constructed (and even then, the wall would seem "odd", not "wrong" or misplaced or sth.).
- Big minus It's a basement... And I was told that it is a little bit humid. So a dehumidifier might become necessary in the long run... There is one Window that would probably have to be walled off as it faces the street on foot-level. Can't really look down there from the street but noise/odour could escape, you never know... Also it makes the "secret room" idea moot, if I don't remove/wall off that window.
Room 3
- It's z attic! Unfortunately, I can't give measurements etc. as I haven't seen it yet. I just know there is one and it's supposedly very large (possibly bigger than Room 2).
- Big plus I can immediately (just from the position of the room in the house) see some advantages... I would have my home office right below the growroom (and nobody goes into my home office xD). Ventilation/exhaust should be even easier than Rooms 1&2. Controlling temperature might be tougher in winter/summer although I live in a very mild area (rarely very hot in the summer, nor very cold in the winter) but it's an attic ...
- Big minus It's an attic... I already mentioned temperature/isolation concerns. Furthermore I would have to move all equipment up the attic and either carry the water manually up there or lay both electricity and water lines up to the attic (not even sure if that is feasible atm, have to check it).
I am leaning towards the basement, walling off the window to the street, cutting it off from the rest of the basement with a dry wall and build a hidden entrance. My main concern at the moment are the window to the street and the decline in height towards the sides of the room...
What do you guys think?
Basic growroom setup in mind
With my stated goal in mind I would think that I need to seperate the growroom into several areas. Currently, I am leaning towards grow tents to do that job but might still come around to building my own wooden frames and seperating the room by hand... Tents seem to be worth the price though, for saving so much hustle and making it possible to take down the growroom much faster (in case I move out or something...)
Flowering tent:
The heart and soul of every operation. Currently thinking Homebox Evolution Par+ or a Secret Jardin DR II 120 (I was thinking to cough up another 30-40 bucks for the Homebox Evolution as I am not high on mylar at all and see the value of better foil in the flowerbox).
Either one would be 120cm(l)*120cm(w)*200cm(h). I am planning to run a 600W HPS in there with the appropriate fan and carbon filter (haven't calculated everything yet as I am not set on sizes but I'm quite set on the 600W HPS as I previously grew with 400W and found it lacking/was convinced there was more and better buds in my plants and felt the light being a major limitation. 1000W is still on the table but I don't think it makes sense for the scale I am looking for).
Veg tent:
I was planning to get a cheaper version tent for this. The best price/value I believe to have found so far in Europe were Secret Jardin again. The Dark Street or Hydro Shoot lines have relatively inexpensive tents. Here are a few candidates:
All relatively inexpensive (70-110 bucks).
Their purpose would be to be my veg tent along with mother and cloning area (was planning to use a rack system on one side for clones in various stages and on the other side have the mothers/vegging plants on the floor).
I would use inexpensive fluorescent light tubes (you call them T5s or T8s or sth?) for the veg/mother/clone tent. Don't think I have use/need for MH as I won't have pressure to veg the plants fast.
Was currently not planning on having a dedicated fan/filter system for this tent. Either run it without or passively integrate it into the flower tent's air circulation.
With the combo option in mind (veg/mother/clone in one tent) I am leaning towards the DS 120 as it seems the most inexpensive tent with a 1.4m² grow area and a height below 200cm, which would be necessary in the basement.
Alternatively I could take a 60*60 or 80*80 tent with less than 200cm height and use it for veg and mother keeping, outsourcing the clones to a smaller DIY box or for example a Secret Jardin propagator (90*60*90) or their small "cristal" tent. Both those "clone tent" options would run me below 60 bucks (the small cristal tent I could get for 35 ...).
What do you guys think? I was planning to flower 4-6 females in 20l (5 gallon) smart pots (or possibly 25-30 liter) at a time in the main tent.
Does the veg tent provide the right size for that?
I know that usually veg chambers are kept smaller than flowering chambers but with breeding in mind, keeping mums and dads, I think I will have to keep quite many clones in circulation and wanna keep the bonzai mums and dads long term as well... So I am thinking a 120*120 veg tent is necessary. Height doesn't really matter much in the veg tent though.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HOMIES DAWG ?!?!?
Which brings us to the topic on which I probably have the most questions...
There is so much info on the breeding of sensimilla but so little info on breeding males...
The selection process for males still puzzles me. I will continue to read resources on this topic but it is my current understanding that while selecting males I will be bound to stem-rubbing and watching for great growth patterns etc. etc. while only being able to know which male is a keeper, once I already produced seeds from its pollen and grew the next generation from seed including harvest and tasting... Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
In terms of keeping males, I assume I just keep taking clones from them and keep the clones in the cycle (destroy older, "vegged" clones, once fresher ones are available, until I was able to determin which males are the ones I want to keep long-term. At that point I guess I could LST a bonzai dad to keep with my bonzai mums in the veg tent...).
Pollen, seeds
I have never gone through this process before and am a little insecure about some stuff...
I was planning to send the males into flowering/pollen production using Daddy Isolation Chamber Kits (which is just JLP's male isolation chamber with a way better name - patent pending) in the main flower tent where I also flower my ladies.
Pollen would be collected outside the flowering tent, possibly even in another room/in the courtyard outside the house.
Question:
If I pull out a lady out of the flowering tent and use a brush/Qtip to pollenate its buds one by one and by hand. Wait a little while for everything to settle and put the mothers back into the flowering room after a few hours, would the ventilation/air circulation cause other females to get pollenated as well? Is such "secondary" pollenation negligible (as in I will find the odd seed here or there on other females) or considerable (I can expect most of the females to produce considerable amounts of seeds and weaker buds)?
Next, more important question:
I read about grafting and I think it is retarded and abnormal. Sure with "number of plant" limitations, it can be regarded as genius. But I also found out by now that my innitial suspicion was justified: there is a good chance DNA gets mixed up. I wasn't surprised that grafting is apparently common practice in dutch coffeeshops. That would certainly explain the decline of quality of their products over the last 10 years and that more and more strains were tasting/feeling "generic" no matter how many "Diesels" or "Jacks" or "Hazes" you slapped on to them...
Anyway, grafting is a no-go for me and I would be happy to debate anyone on its possible (imho highly likely) negative effects, even with my limited knowledge and experience
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
What about pollenating 1 Bud of a female with the pollen from one dad and another Bud with the pollen of another dad?
As far as I know this is also possible and quite often practiced (I read something about paper bags being used to prevent pollen from one bud mixing with pollen from the next bud over, for 48 hours until pollen is no longer viable, the bags letting through enough light to not have too much of a negative effect on the plant/seed production and the pollen losing viability to accidentally pollenating other buds/plants after ~48 hours --> bags removed, produce several crosses on one female - am I missing/misunderstanding anything here?).
Now this seems more interesting to me ...
Being able to pollenate one female plant with the pollen from several males would considerably speed up my breeding efforts!
It also would give rise to the idea of a third (or 4th if outsourcing clones from veg tent) grow tent just for seed-making. I could also use this tent for drying in between seed production cycles...
I assume I couldn't flower 4-5 males in the same tent at the same time though? I would imagine that from air circulation alone their pollen would mix and I would have no idea what seeds I am actually making in the end. Or am I missing something?
I think D.I.C.K.'s are the way to go for the males... I would just make 2-4 of them so I could make sure I have a variety of pollen available, once I found a keeper mum, until I found the right keeper dad...
The rest of the setup would be a dedicated freezer (for freeze curing of buds, long term storage of buds and long term storage of seeds), all mah nutes n tools etc. .
Oh and a drybox/tent if I don't get that 3rd (or 4th..) tent for males and/or seed making... But I guess I could make the drybox easily myself from available furniture and some computer fans I got around the house...
Then a table, chair and green light, few this and that and I am all set I suppose...
Ah, almost forgot, the medium I was planning to use is Plagron promix as I got a decent deal of 10 bucks per 50 liters. Was going to buy about 5 bags and be set for the next year or so.
I hope I am not too all over the place and look forward to all your ideas, opinions, suggestions, criticism, etc.
ICmag has been a wealth of information so far
And please don't misunderstand: I don't want to be spoonfed my answers. But the topic is far and wide and I am sure I will have missed/misunderstood something along the way and that's what a community is for, no?
Happy little trees my friends!
KappaRoss
the last couple of weeks I spent lurking and soaking up anything I could find to get me back up to speed.
WARNING
Wall of text ahead... I don't have pictures I can use to soften the blow and I have been told before I am not exactly "concise" with words xD Hope it's still an interesting read for you and I can fill some of you with enthusiasm for my project
This was my first thread on ICmag. I started with strains/genetics/seeds because I can probably acquire them ahead of time/keep an eye out on deals etc.
As you can see I got quite far with my strain questions already but am not 100% set, so feel free to chime in there, if you like.
Now to the project at hand:
GOAL
- Providing me and the missus with exceptional herb for personal use. I want to dab in breeding and try my own crosses along the way. Which means mothers/clones, males and seed production. So I am looking at a perpetual setup.
- Less is more !! --> 150 grams would easily last us a year. So high yields are not required. Sure they aren't bad, especially for my breeding aspirations but they are an afterthought. Quality over quantity is what I am aiming for.
Genetics in mind/strain goal
- As mentioned in the "intro", see my first thread on icmag here for details
- Summarized, I'm looking for a strain with the following characteristics:
- Unmistakably sweet/fruity/bubblegum taste/flavor/smell/aroma
- Sativa heavy effect (euphoria, creativity, active, clear, cerebral, serene, "up")
- Coloration, be it purple, blue, orange, reddish or just basically white from the resin (green won't kill me but ultimately I would like color as a bonus effect)
Which room though? (here come the questions)
So I recently came into owning a house which is basically why the whole topic came up again in my mind. I will have space gallore. Currently I am looking into 3 rooms in the house and would ask your help to decide which one to use!
Room 1
- 250cm(length)*250(w)*220(h) Own water and electricity supply. 2 small windows, 1 facing the courtyard (which is seperated from the street by a >2 meter high solid metal gate (can't see through). The other one facing a small area where I store firewood.
- Big Plus The room has a toilet and faucet/sink installed so water would also be available. Temperature wise it should be fine but it might get hot in the summer since there is no room above it.
- Big minus The biggest disadvantage (imho) would be that it is right next to the entrance of the house. If the carbon filter ever malfunctions, anybody entering the house would know whats up immediately. The room does however not face, nor have windows to any public property. Just the house entrance is right next to the door of Room 1 :-/
Room 2
- Da basement
My favorite so far. Both water and additional electricity would be easily made available. The room is about 350 cm long, about 300 cm wide and has a height of about 210 cm in the middle. However, it declines towards the side walls, where the height goes as low as 170 cm! There is an about 200 cm wide (and 350 cm long..) area in the middle where the height remains 200-210 cm.- Big plus It's a basement... There is space, there is cool and controllable temperatures, ventilation and exhaust is easy, water and additional electricity circuits can be brought over from the adjacent rooms. I'm sitting at the "source" for water and electricity, so to speak. Another plus is that I could create a secret room here. There is only 1 window in the room (see "Big minus"..) which could be walled shut and then I could make the room "disappear" to anyone who doesn't have exceptional depth perception and knowledge on how houses and basements are generally constructed (and even then, the wall would seem "odd", not "wrong" or misplaced or sth.).
- Big minus It's a basement... And I was told that it is a little bit humid. So a dehumidifier might become necessary in the long run... There is one Window that would probably have to be walled off as it faces the street on foot-level. Can't really look down there from the street but noise/odour could escape, you never know... Also it makes the "secret room" idea moot, if I don't remove/wall off that window.
Room 3
- It's z attic! Unfortunately, I can't give measurements etc. as I haven't seen it yet. I just know there is one and it's supposedly very large (possibly bigger than Room 2).
- Big plus I can immediately (just from the position of the room in the house) see some advantages... I would have my home office right below the growroom (and nobody goes into my home office xD). Ventilation/exhaust should be even easier than Rooms 1&2. Controlling temperature might be tougher in winter/summer although I live in a very mild area (rarely very hot in the summer, nor very cold in the winter) but it's an attic ...
- Big minus It's an attic... I already mentioned temperature/isolation concerns. Furthermore I would have to move all equipment up the attic and either carry the water manually up there or lay both electricity and water lines up to the attic (not even sure if that is feasible atm, have to check it).
I am leaning towards the basement, walling off the window to the street, cutting it off from the rest of the basement with a dry wall and build a hidden entrance. My main concern at the moment are the window to the street and the decline in height towards the sides of the room...
What do you guys think?
Basic growroom setup in mind
With my stated goal in mind I would think that I need to seperate the growroom into several areas. Currently, I am leaning towards grow tents to do that job but might still come around to building my own wooden frames and seperating the room by hand... Tents seem to be worth the price though, for saving so much hustle and making it possible to take down the growroom much faster (in case I move out or something...)
Flowering tent:
The heart and soul of every operation. Currently thinking Homebox Evolution Par+ or a Secret Jardin DR II 120 (I was thinking to cough up another 30-40 bucks for the Homebox Evolution as I am not high on mylar at all and see the value of better foil in the flowerbox).
Either one would be 120cm(l)*120cm(w)*200cm(h). I am planning to run a 600W HPS in there with the appropriate fan and carbon filter (haven't calculated everything yet as I am not set on sizes but I'm quite set on the 600W HPS as I previously grew with 400W and found it lacking/was convinced there was more and better buds in my plants and felt the light being a major limitation. 1000W is still on the table but I don't think it makes sense for the scale I am looking for).
Veg tent:
I was planning to get a cheaper version tent for this. The best price/value I believe to have found so far in Europe were Secret Jardin again. The Dark Street or Hydro Shoot lines have relatively inexpensive tents. Here are a few candidates:
- DS 90 (90*90*170)
- DS 120 (120*120*185)
- Hydroshoot (80*80*160)
All relatively inexpensive (70-110 bucks).
Their purpose would be to be my veg tent along with mother and cloning area (was planning to use a rack system on one side for clones in various stages and on the other side have the mothers/vegging plants on the floor).
I would use inexpensive fluorescent light tubes (you call them T5s or T8s or sth?) for the veg/mother/clone tent. Don't think I have use/need for MH as I won't have pressure to veg the plants fast.
Was currently not planning on having a dedicated fan/filter system for this tent. Either run it without or passively integrate it into the flower tent's air circulation.
With the combo option in mind (veg/mother/clone in one tent) I am leaning towards the DS 120 as it seems the most inexpensive tent with a 1.4m² grow area and a height below 200cm, which would be necessary in the basement.
Alternatively I could take a 60*60 or 80*80 tent with less than 200cm height and use it for veg and mother keeping, outsourcing the clones to a smaller DIY box or for example a Secret Jardin propagator (90*60*90) or their small "cristal" tent. Both those "clone tent" options would run me below 60 bucks (the small cristal tent I could get for 35 ...).
What do you guys think? I was planning to flower 4-6 females in 20l (5 gallon) smart pots (or possibly 25-30 liter) at a time in the main tent.
Does the veg tent provide the right size for that?
I know that usually veg chambers are kept smaller than flowering chambers but with breeding in mind, keeping mums and dads, I think I will have to keep quite many clones in circulation and wanna keep the bonzai mums and dads long term as well... So I am thinking a 120*120 veg tent is necessary. Height doesn't really matter much in the veg tent though.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HOMIES DAWG ?!?!?
Which brings us to the topic on which I probably have the most questions...
There is so much info on the breeding of sensimilla but so little info on breeding males...
The selection process for males still puzzles me. I will continue to read resources on this topic but it is my current understanding that while selecting males I will be bound to stem-rubbing and watching for great growth patterns etc. etc. while only being able to know which male is a keeper, once I already produced seeds from its pollen and grew the next generation from seed including harvest and tasting... Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
In terms of keeping males, I assume I just keep taking clones from them and keep the clones in the cycle (destroy older, "vegged" clones, once fresher ones are available, until I was able to determin which males are the ones I want to keep long-term. At that point I guess I could LST a bonzai dad to keep with my bonzai mums in the veg tent...).
Pollen, seeds
I have never gone through this process before and am a little insecure about some stuff...
I was planning to send the males into flowering/pollen production using Daddy Isolation Chamber Kits (which is just JLP's male isolation chamber with a way better name - patent pending) in the main flower tent where I also flower my ladies.
Pollen would be collected outside the flowering tent, possibly even in another room/in the courtyard outside the house.
Question:
If I pull out a lady out of the flowering tent and use a brush/Qtip to pollenate its buds one by one and by hand. Wait a little while for everything to settle and put the mothers back into the flowering room after a few hours, would the ventilation/air circulation cause other females to get pollenated as well? Is such "secondary" pollenation negligible (as in I will find the odd seed here or there on other females) or considerable (I can expect most of the females to produce considerable amounts of seeds and weaker buds)?
Next, more important question:
I read about grafting and I think it is retarded and abnormal. Sure with "number of plant" limitations, it can be regarded as genius. But I also found out by now that my innitial suspicion was justified: there is a good chance DNA gets mixed up. I wasn't surprised that grafting is apparently common practice in dutch coffeeshops. That would certainly explain the decline of quality of their products over the last 10 years and that more and more strains were tasting/feeling "generic" no matter how many "Diesels" or "Jacks" or "Hazes" you slapped on to them...
Anyway, grafting is a no-go for me and I would be happy to debate anyone on its possible (imho highly likely) negative effects, even with my limited knowledge and experience
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
What about pollenating 1 Bud of a female with the pollen from one dad and another Bud with the pollen of another dad?
As far as I know this is also possible and quite often practiced (I read something about paper bags being used to prevent pollen from one bud mixing with pollen from the next bud over, for 48 hours until pollen is no longer viable, the bags letting through enough light to not have too much of a negative effect on the plant/seed production and the pollen losing viability to accidentally pollenating other buds/plants after ~48 hours --> bags removed, produce several crosses on one female - am I missing/misunderstanding anything here?).
Now this seems more interesting to me ...
Being able to pollenate one female plant with the pollen from several males would considerably speed up my breeding efforts!
It also would give rise to the idea of a third (or 4th if outsourcing clones from veg tent) grow tent just for seed-making. I could also use this tent for drying in between seed production cycles...
I assume I couldn't flower 4-5 males in the same tent at the same time though? I would imagine that from air circulation alone their pollen would mix and I would have no idea what seeds I am actually making in the end. Or am I missing something?
I think D.I.C.K.'s are the way to go for the males... I would just make 2-4 of them so I could make sure I have a variety of pollen available, once I found a keeper mum, until I found the right keeper dad...
The rest of the setup would be a dedicated freezer (for freeze curing of buds, long term storage of buds and long term storage of seeds), all mah nutes n tools etc. .
Oh and a drybox/tent if I don't get that 3rd (or 4th..) tent for males and/or seed making... But I guess I could make the drybox easily myself from available furniture and some computer fans I got around the house...
Then a table, chair and green light, few this and that and I am all set I suppose...
Ah, almost forgot, the medium I was planning to use is Plagron promix as I got a decent deal of 10 bucks per 50 liters. Was going to buy about 5 bags and be set for the next year or so.
I hope I am not too all over the place and look forward to all your ideas, opinions, suggestions, criticism, etc.
ICmag has been a wealth of information so far
And please don't misunderstand: I don't want to be spoonfed my answers. But the topic is far and wide and I am sure I will have missed/misunderstood something along the way and that's what a community is for, no?
Happy little trees my friends!
KappaRoss
