Mg deficiency/lockout - how to flush?

[lightmove]

My plants are suffering from Mg deficiency. 5 days I foliar feed them with epsom salt, the situation is quite the same. Today I will flush them. Will it be better to use funal solution for flushing instead of plain water? Will the final solution remove salt build ups?

Used medium is soil. Plants are transplanted into it after unsuccesful try with hydroponics.

 

[HeadyPete]

5 days I foliar feed them with epsom salt, the situation is quite the same.

Then you don't have mag lockout.....

Most likely your ph is incorrect but can't tell unless you post pix and fill out the infirmary form...

Also, going from hydro to soil is a no-no. The plants have grown roots adapted for immersion in water, now they are in soil and lack the fine root hairs necessary to live in soil. Looks like big problems all around....

 

[GET MO]

U could try clearex.

 

[lightmove]

HeadyPete I moved to soil because was afraid to lose plants. They have many roots, the bottom of rockwool is filled with roots. For one and a half week into soil they have grow up about 15cm (6 inches).
GET MO into my country I can buy only final solution.

How long has this problem been going on? Three weeks
What STRAIN are you growing? Fruit spirit, Silver Haze
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) Seed
What is the age of your plants? 6 weeks
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? 4.5 weeks hydro, 1.5 week soil
How Tall are the plants? 45cm (18 inches)
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? vegetative, today I am switching to 12/12
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) feed to waste when hydro
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 7 liters (1.9 gallons)
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using? peat substrate and 25% perlite
What Nutrient's are you using? Advanced Hydroponics of Holland, Grow (25-12-50), Bloom (00-50-35), Micro (45-00-10)
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? Grow - 1ml/liter, Bloom 0.5ml/liter, Micro 0.5ml/liter
How often are you feeding? once in 4-5 days
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? not reached flowering
What order are you mixing your nutrients? I've mixed both veg and bloom without considering the order
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? EC - 0.8 mS/cm, 400ppm
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? not checked now when I am using soil
What method of pH test was administered? pH tester - Hanna
How often are you watering? When soil is dry about half inch below surface (4-5 days)
What size bulb are you using? 2 HPS lamps 600W each
What is the distance to the canopy? 60cm (2 feet)
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 50%
What is the canopy temperature? Unknown.
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) Day 20-22 degree celsius (68-71.6 F), Night - 20-21 C (68-69.8 F) using air-conditioner when lamps are on
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 150 CMH (88CFM)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Constantly runnig, grow room is into another room
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Yes, oscilating fan, low speed
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? Yes
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Soft, pH 7.2
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap water, pH adjusting after mixing of nutritients
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? None
Are plant's infected with pest's? No

Here are some recent pics. Didn't uploaded them yesterday, because server constantly returned errors.
Leafs are soft, slight pale green between veins and near edges.

These are two weeks older

 

[pokerfish]

I agree with HP- there will be problems associated with using rw & soil together, especially the first several weeks aft transplant. Different properties entirely, different nute requirements, different feed schedules, different interaction with the roots/plants.

The combo is going to problematic for you, the entire run, imo... For example, you even listed that you aren't taking ec's at r-off anymore because you are in soil now, so presumably it isn't necessary because of the way soil functions with the nutes...? This seems wrong to me regardless- keep checking your ec's as at least you will have a little better idea of how things are functioning.

I would think the initial problem you noticed while running the rw was related to the frequency of feeds as they got bigger- every 4-5days. Way too long in between- pH in the cubes was most likely off, along with nute levels/ratios. Some lock-up and/or def resulted & finally showed up. Probably, the same lack of food is an issue now, except you have 2 soil types & neither are in balance with what the plants need.

Also, I've noticed a Sulfur looking deficiency in pic 1- smaller 3-finger leaf toward lower, left corner. Similar to other leaves, just real clear on this one. It might not be Mg, but S. Also, plants don't seem to have the rust speckling as with normal Mg def...

 

[lightmove]

pokerfish now I am feeding in 4-5 days interval. When used hydro, I was feeding twice daily. Now I am just waiting to dry upper part of soil. I have read that this is proper way to not overwater plants. Switched to soil because many plants showed bad symptoms, and I was afraid, pH fluctuated every day, I cannot stabilize it, so I thought that soil is safer.

Not checked pH because thought that it not so critical when growing in soil. Now i will. Sulfur deficiency is interesting idea. Thanks!

Just checked pictures of sulfur deficiency. In case of this deficiency yellowing starts from leaf stem toward leaf edges. In my case the most pale color is at the leaf edge and into the center between veins. Area near leaf stem have good looking green color. First four pictures are taken under HPS light and are slight yellow than normal. In middle upper part of picture four is the best view of the problem. All plant look similar to that, but the HPS light is distorting colors.

 

[pokerfish]

LM, honestly, think you're in a jackpot here. Also, would get PH's take on how to best proceed...

IMO, tracking down the specific deficiency isn't too relevant as you have several. Still think I see S as the veins will stay green as rest of leaf curls under & whitens/bleaches out. Also clearly see K issues in pic 1,2,4 & 6. Ones in r/w look "normal" with aging (first leaves) & the best, but also best lighting there... Back to the point, the plants are probably experiencing lock-out (diff from deprivation due to underfeeding) due to unfavorable conditions @ the roots. Solve this (the best you can at least) to address the deficiencies you are noticing. Concentrate on isolating the soil issues, not the specific deficiency & additive to address.

Placing the r/w block into soil doesn't solve the underlying issues you had with the r/w initially. Now it is probably worse than ever due to its being immersed in soil. Stuff from the soil is now leaching into the cubes, where all the other imbalances previously existed. This can only exacerbate the sit. This is where the majority of your root mass still is, btw. So, it is going to forever remain a problem.

Flushing is very difficult now since you would essentially have to flush the entire soil in futile (not you, just soil won't readily do this) hopes to make it "more hydroponic" like, as a means to solve the problems... like I said, in a jackpot now... Ask HP as you will need more experience to draw from to salvage. Best though, sending you positive vibes, but would channel that into the next run, imo... Don't mean to be harsh, but the sit isn't particularly good.

 

[lightmove]

Thanks pokerfish! Do you think that flushing with final solution will be better? Today i will flush every pot with water 3 times larger than volume of pots. Next I am planing to start foliar feeding, contents of the fertilizer are:
N 21.0
P2O5 5.0
K2O 10.0
B 0.020
Fe 0.250
Mn 0.018
Zn 0.010
Cu 0.014
Mo 0.002
I hope that flushing will remove lock-out.

Few days ago I read about lock-out, caused by stagnated water into the bottom of pots.
In my case, Rockwool cubes were placed into small pots and into bottom of the cubes there was plenty of roots, whole bottom part of the cube was filled with roots. Look like roots were staying into stagnant solution. May be this was the initial problem, but now is too late. I read this after transplanting into soil.

 

[pokerfish]

Just had an idea based on assumption that someone gave me a killer strain only in the condition of your babies... just handed me the pot & said here ya go, but I wanted it...

Foliar as you stated, but would use a very light balanced bloom formula with a few drops of SThrive & fulvic. The mix @ no higher than 250ppm, rather it be 180-220 total. Let it sit for 4 or 5 hours & rebound a little... at least get it in the leaves & begin to try to process.

Here's the tough part, treat it like a root bound plant. Pull the root mass & shave/cut soil off back to the r/w cubes. Flush it, flush it, flush it, flush it, and then flush it some more with same mix as foliar, but use 1ml/gal of ST & fulvic... keep the ppms @ 250 total. Make sure it is pH'd at 5.6. Make sure it is a hydro nute.

At this point, use the same pots you dumped the soil from but get some r/w loose fill or minicubes in bags. Set the old cube into a bed of this & surround the cube. Cut any dead and/or damaged roots beforehand. Reflush these pots with the same solution from above. Raise lights. Foliar again next day. Let them rebound over the next week. If look good, bloom em.

If you had problems with r/w & bal ec's & pH's, then run it as a drain2waiste for the remainder of this run. I would take some cuts from these as soon as they revive, btw, b4 you bloom them. If want to run simpler & feel soil is it, start with it & finish with it. Read the soil forum- spend a week to do this @ 2-3 hours per day. Think a subject in school you really enjoy learning about. Best.

 

[lightmove]

So, back to hydro? If I flush heavy the soil, can I acquire similar effect? With rockwool I had very quick rising of pH. The cubes was presoaked 24 hours, pH 5.5. But the pH still rise, watering with 5.5, runoff was 6.5-6.7. If things become the same as before, plants will suffer more. I don't know, returning to rockwool may be will multiply my problems.
Checked the roots, they are grown even trough the bottom holes of the pots. So, the root system is very large now, this will be great obstacle to return to rockwool.
I will wait few more days, just flushing throughly and foliar feeding.
Superthrive is not sold into my country, i can replace it with Enzymes+ (advanced hydroponics)

 

[HeadyPete]

Test your runoff ph and adjust your nutrient /water ph accordingly next watering.

Between the r/w and the tap water your ph is likely high. R/W is made from basalt rock which contains calcium and magnesium as major components. These minerals are basically dolomite lime and very alkaline. Over time the cal and mag dissolve out and will raise ph in your soil. Next time don't use r/w. Try peat pellets (cut the outer mesh off when roots start to poke out), or some other starter method.

Stick with the soil, it is easier and more forgiving than hydro, but you still must test and maintain proper ph. Shoot for 6.3 in = 6.3 out.

I'd also increase the nutes by 50% next time and see if they get better. 400 ppm seems a little low for 6 week plants under 2 600w lights. It's possible they need more food, but i'd also make sure that ph is correct.

 

[lightmove]

Thanks HeadyPete!
Yesterday I started flushing and checking runoff. Made flushing with tap water - pH 7.2. Pots are 7 liters (almost 2 gallons). First flushing was with 4 liters (1 gallon), runoff has pH 5.6, 1400pmm. Second flushing with 4 liters, runoff was - pH 5.9, 840ppm. Looks like there is salt build up. Next two days I will continue to flush until ppm of runoff lower more.

 

[cannanurse]

dark green in middle of leaves

dark green in middle of leaves

the leaves of my plants are become dark green again...first and second times i flushed them and water them with mild fertilizer than they looked better... but it happened again..is any friends here can tell me what happened and what should i do? thanks.