Mag Def? Lockout? HELP!

[IrieTree]

Strain of Mj? Somas Rockbud
Hydroponic or soil? Soil
From seed or clone? Clone
Age of plant in question? Around one month of veg.
What stage (Veg/Flower; how many days into)? Veg
Medium (Soil, Rockwool, Hydroton etc.)? Soil
Container/Pot size? 3 gallon tall grow bags
Have they been transplanted, if so how long ago? about 2 weeks
If soil, composition ratios (peat moss, perilite, vermiculite etc.)? 1/3 FFOF, 1/3 FF Chunky Perlite, 1/3 Shredded Coco
Water runoff Ph? Around 6.5
Nutrients added? Cutting Edge Solutions Grow,Bloom,Micro,Plant Amp
Ratios of nutrients (N% P% K%)? 2.5, 1.5, 6
Feeding schedule? Once a week
When were they last fed/watered? fed, and watered around 3 days ago
How are you determining when to feed/water (weight, wilting, etc.)?Combonation of weight, and just feeling through the drain holes at the bottom of the bags, also a moisture meter.
TDS/EC/PPM? n/a
Tap/RO/Distilled water? Tap
Ph before and after adding nutrients? Water out of sink filter = 6.5, after nutes in the 5 range until the chelated calcium is uptook (about a day or so) then to around 6.5
Is your Ph equipment properly calibrated? GH Test Kit, not sure of accuracy.
Light intensity/Age of bulb/Wattage?62WPSF, 1000wHPS, Bulb age unknown
Distance to the canopy? As close as temps will permit
Temps at canopy? Under 83
Temps at root zone or reservoir? n/a
Day/Night temps (Min.-Max.)? around 72-78, sometimes 80 on real stuffy days
Current air flow (CFM)? Grotek 500+ cfm (not sure on the exact number, think its 630 tho)
Is there air blowing directly onto plant? yes
Using CO2? no
Relative humidity? n/a
Growing technique (Scrog, Sog, Supercropping etc.)? LST
Has plant recently been pruned, clones taken, fimmed or pinched? No
Pests? No

Ok, got that out of the way. When this first came about, I thought it was a Mag Def. I added epsom salt to my last feed (1/2 tsp per gallon). This Didnt seem to help very much. It doesnt seem to effect new growth, just older fan leaves. Mostly in the middle of the plant, but a few on top. When I gave them the epsom, they also got their first full strength feeding (think to be safe Im gonna back it off to 3/4). Is there something locking out the mag? Or is it not mag at all. Im about to switch to flower, so I really want this taken care of before the flip. Any opinions are appreciated, let me know if theres any other info you need. Sorry the pics are so crappy, I dont have a digi and used my cell phone to get these. Stay irie!

 

[IrieTree]

Not sure if this helps out or not, but I just went over to cannastats and did a breakdown of the last feeding. I guess full strength probably isnt to strong if its coming in at 606 ppms. I did notice I seem to be lacking Mg in the ferts tho (only 14ppm). Seems the epsom salt would of made up for it tho.... Maybe theres too much something locking something else out, or possibly im mixing my nutes incorrectly leading to something being locked out. Ill go read up more on that, heres my breakdown tho.

GROW
(N) Nitrogen - 99ppm (nitrate - 79ppm
ammonium - 20ppm)
(P) Phosphorus - 26ppm
(K) Potassium - 197ppm

Bloom
(P) Phosphorus - 35ppm
(K) Potassium - 55ppm
(Mg) Magnesium - 13ppm
(S) Sulfur - 26ppm

Micro
(N) Nitrogen - 126ppm (nitrate - 120ppm
ammonium - 6ppm)
(Mg) Magnesium - 1ppm
(Ca) Calcium - 0ppm (.0005%)
(Fe) Iron - 2.1136ppm
(Mo) Molybenum - .0169ppm

Plant Amp
(Ca) Calcium - 26ppm

Total PPM =606

Final N-P-K-Mg=
225-61-252-14

 

[IrieTree]

Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen.

I just found this on another thread here and it got me to thinking. There were a few times that I watered and didnt have time to let it sit out and dechlorinate(sp?). I looked up a "Consumer Confidence Report" that my city water folks put out for last year, it listed the average ppm for chlorine being .39, the water hardness at 64-98ppm (Avg. 78) and a TDS of 96-98ppm. I read once that having hard water in the 200ppm range could cause problems, I dont know for sure, but these numbers dont seem like they would cause a problem.

Could this be from Chlorine locking out Mg?

Note: I looked on the screen and the Ca on the above quote, and the Ca in the Plant Amp I use jumped out at me. Plant amp is an additive for the nute line I use, is 26ppm of Ca too much? If it could be from the Plant Amp, if I just ease of on the ammount would it correct itself? Or would I need to flush, etc.

 

[ChaoticEntity]

P levels are low, they could use a boost, if you didn't rinse out the coco then it'll leach Ca and throw you off, what I would recommend is flushing your plant with ~6gal of water, increase the P, and nute them 2x a week.

 

[8 Ball]

You got alot of potassium and very little calcium or magnesium. Need to increase both so that you end up with a 4:2:1 ratio of k ca mg. (unless there is fresh dolomite lime in the soil mix) So if you got 250 k, you need 125 ca and 62 mg. See the problem?

If you have not repotted in a while, you might want to add or freshen up the dolomite lime in the soil mix. This would solve the low ca/mg in your fert water. Add 1 1/2 teaspoons powdered dol. lime per gallon of soil mix. Water in. Ph will rise. Stop using the calcium suppliment that raises ph. Adjust fert water ph after mixing to about 6.

Other alternatives that don't affect ph:
1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water epsom salts = 30 ppm mg
1/4 teaspoon powdered gypsum per gal water = 60 ppm ca
calcium chloride can be used as a ca source. Need % ca on bottle and net weight for a rate. Sold under the name tomatoe blossom end rot stopper or something

1/4 teaspoon calcium nitrate per gal water adds 70 ppm ca and 50 ppm nitrogen. (Won't burn) Will raise ph slightly after repeated use.





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[IrieTree]

P levels are low, they could use a boost, if you didn't rinse out the coco then it'll leach Ca and throw you off, what I would recommend is flushing your plant with ~6gal of water, increase the P, and nute them 2x a week.

Thanks for the reply man. I didn't know that about coco. So I'm thinking with adding the Plant Amp (Ca additive) and the unrinsed coco leaching out Ca, there too much and its locking out the Mag.

You got alot of potassium and very little calcium or magnesium. Need to increase both so that you end up with a 4:2:1 ratio of k ca mg. (unless there is fresh dolomite lime in the soil mix) So if you got 250 k, you need 125 ca and 62 mg. See the problem?

If you have not repotted in a while, you might want to add or freshen up the dolomite lime in the soil mix. This would solve the low ca/mg in your fert water. Add 1 1/2 teaspoons powdered dol. lime per gallon of soil mix. Water in. Ph will rise. Stop using the calcium suppliment that raises ph. Adjust fert water ph after mixing to about 6.

Other alternatives that don't affect ph:
1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water epsom salts = 30 ppm mg
1/4 teaspoon powdered gypsum per gal water = 60 ppm ca
calcium chloride can be used as a ca source. Need % ca on bottle and net weight for a rate. Sold under the name tomatoe blossom end rot stopper or something

1/4 teaspoon calcium nitrate per gal water adds 70 ppm ca and 50 ppm nitrogen. (Won't burn) Will raise ph slightly after repeated use.

Hey there, great response! There is no dol. lime in my soil. And I wasn't planning on repotting, I dont have alot of head room, and was planning on flowering next week. The calcium supplement doesnt raise ph, it lowers it. It says "Plant Amp contains organic acids which cause a temporary low ph reading. DO NOT ADJUST PH. The ph will rise naturally as the plant uptakes the chelated calcium in on or two days."
Im slightly confused, if too much Ca is locking out the Mag, why would I need more? If I flush my soil with plain water, to get rid of any Ca buildup from the coco leaching, then adjust my fert mix to the proper levels, should this put my back on track? Im thinking of getting Botanicare Cal-Mag+ to bring the Ca-Mag levels up once everythings corrected.

 

[IrieTree]

Just flushed em all with 3 gals of water (ph 6.5). Then I gave them a feeding. It looked something like this.

Cutting Edge Solutions Micro(8ml/gal)
(N) Nitrogen - 126ppm (nitrate - 120ppm
ammonium - 6ppm)
(Mg) Magnesium - 1ppm
(Ca) Calcium - 0ppm
(Fe) Iron - 2.1136ppm
(Mo) Molybenum - .0169ppm

Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus(5ml/gal)
(N) Nitrogen - 27ppm
(Mg) Magnesium - 16ppm
(Ca) Calcium - 43ppm
(Fe) Iron - 1.32ppm

Epsom salt at 1/2 tsp/gal - 60ppm Mg

Cutting Edge Solutions Bloom(5ml/gal)
(P) Phosphorus - 35ppm
(K) Potassium - 55ppm
(Mg) Magnesium - 13ppm
(S) Sulfur - 26ppm

Cutting Edge Solutions GROW (15ml/gal)
(N) Nitrogen - 99ppm (nitrate - 79ppm
ammonium - 20ppm)
(P) Phosphorus - 26ppm
(K) Potassium - 197ppm



ChaoticEntity mentions my P levels were a little to low so I put 1tbs/gal of 0-12-1 Seabird Guano into a panty hose and soaked in my res. Not positive if I did this right, but Im thinking that would add around 100ppm of P. So if thats the case, that would bring everything to:

N-252ppm
P-161ppm
K-252ppm
Mg-90ppm
Ca-43ppm
Total ppm-798

And also, I added enough ph up to bring the ph to somewhere around 6-6.4

I know my k,mg,ca levels are NOT 4:2:1 like 8-Ball said they should. But I didnt have any powdered gypsum and wasnt sure if I could just use more cal-mag or not. Can I just use more cal-mag to bring it up, or should I fine tune with gypsum/epsom? I know the numbers say it needs more, Im just afraid of burning my ladies.

Am I on the right track here? I really want to get this taken care of so I can turn the lights and let the girls do their thing. Thanks for reading all this nonesense, I sure hope it makes sense to someone other than me!

 

[powdergreen]

that is quite high in ppm for P. Also the 4-2-1 ratiom is 4 K 2 Ca and 1 ofMg, with that your definitely going to have a calcium problem esp if you dont have any Dolimite Lime added. I think your problem was a Mag cal and K battle. Too much K not enough cal and Mag, also maybe too much Nitrogen?

 

[powdergreen]

also maybe you have very low RH making it difficult to intake all the K they are getting

 

[IrieTree]

I do have alot of of air flow, and its in a very dry attic space, so Im sure the RH is real low, not positive what it is yet tho. I started leaving the water in the trays last week see if that helps it a little. What do you supose I do at this point? What adjustments would you make to that feeding profile? Should I just add enough gypsum and epsom salt to raise the cal mag to where they should be, and also skip the guano next time (lowers the P)? Possibly decrease the Grow or the micro (micro has more N) to lower the nitrogen down a little.

 

[IrieTree]

Im doing alot of thinking outloud on here
Maybe it will come in handy when I look back on it....

 

[8 Ball]

N-252ppm
P-161ppm
K-252ppm
Mg-90ppm
Ca-43ppm
Total ppm-798

Too strong! N @ 200 is about max unless this is fed only occassionally. Better to feed constantly @ maybe 150 ppm n. P is outrageous. You only need...get this ...maybe 5 to 20. I would aim for maybe 30-50. Too much k. Your raising your ec for no reason using this much. Your not using the 4:2:1 ratio of k to ca to mg. Your mg is 2x your calcium.

Try for something like this:
n 150
p 30
k 150
ca 75
mg 35

When you go to flower, reduce n to 100 and increase p to 60...

n 100
p 60
k 150
ca 75
mg 35

Take a look at formula 1 and 2 on page 11 of this link:

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/veginfo/topics/hydroponics/hydroponics.pdf

You can see that both of my suggestions somewhat resemble these known solutions.

Edit: I see you came up with this for flower.
N-P-K-Ca-Mg
119-135-189-92-43

Only problem is too much p. (Ignore lucas formula and cannastats...Trust the 8 Ball ) Too much p will cause micronutrient problems especially zinc. Try 60. That should be more than enough. You may have to make slight ca and mg adjustments...just watch the plants closely.

One more thing... you stated your using tapwater. Most water companys add calcium carbonate to reduce pipe rusting. You should figure out what is in the water so your not adding too much of something. This may be as simple as calling the water company and ask. Example: You want 92 ca for the plants. The tap water has 40. 92-40 = 52 ca you would add to your fert water. Simple.

 

[pSi007]

the pale green tells me it can use more nitrogen

 

[IrieTree]

Too strong! N @ 200 is about max unless this is fed only occassionally. Better to feed constantly @ maybe 150 ppm n. P is outrageous. You only need...get this ...maybe 5 to 20. I would aim for maybe 30-50. Too much k. Your raising your ec for no reason using this much. Your not using the 4:2:1 ratio of k to ca to mg. Your mg is 2x your calcium.

Try for something like this:
n 150
p 30
k 150
ca 75
mg 35

When you go to flower, reduce n to 100 and increase p to 60...

n 100
p 60
k 150
ca 75
mg 35

Take a look at formula 1 and 2 on page 11 of this link:

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/veginfo/topics/hydroponics/hydroponics.pdf

You can see that both of my suggestions somewhat resemble these known solutions.

Edit: I see you came up with this for flower.
N-P-K-Ca-Mg
119-135-189-92-43

Only problem is too much p. (Ignore lucas formula and cannastats...Trust the 8 Ball ) Too much p will cause micronutrient problems especially zinc. Try 60. That should be more than enough. You may have to make slight ca and mg adjustments...just watch the plants closely.

One more thing... you stated your using tapwater. Most water companys add calcium carbonate to reduce pipe rusting. You should figure out what is in the water so your not adding too much of something. This may be as simple as calling the water company and ask. Example: You want 92 ca for the plants. The tap water has 40. 92-40 = 52 ca you would add to your fert water. Simple.

You are amazing man. Im gonna hope my messed up ratios wont fuck it up too bad, and Ill get it all on track next water. Im gonna switch the lights so Im gonna start the transition mix. Ill work on bringing the p down aswell. Thanks alot man. Im thinking of calling the water company up to see how much calcium is in my water, Ill say something about I have special fish or something and need to know.

 

[8 Ball]

I have special fish or something and need to know.

LOL

 

[Guest]