Low wattage and vertical scrog effectiveness

[vman]

Hi guys

Here are some questions about effectiveness for vertical setups with low wattage (single HPS, 150 or 250w max) and low light penetration

Above all, three years ago, I flipped my horizontal scrog setup to vertical with a single 250w (coco, in a cab), but the more I grow with this setup, the more I have doubts about it's effectiveness.
Lot of threads here helped me, but most of them are using heavy HPS.

For me, there is no argue about vertical setup with high penetration lamps compared with horizontal, but what about low light penetration? :/

For example, when I see Wick420 nice thread, I see more an horizontal scrog with a vertical lamp, and it seems that better results are made with Sog in a 150-250w vertical setup (mini-Heat Rob' setup for example, or Laylow's setup, even if he is using a dual 250w now)

Vertical grow circular theory is seductive, but by experience (and I insist on low light penetration setups), the real diameter is smaller than planned (canopy diameter, like the hole diameter diameter of a donut, and not it's whole diameter)

Guys would say to me: "try back horizontal and compare your results" but I have already spent too much time to perfect my vertical system to come back to the beginnings ^^'

I post this thread in the vertical section to dodge classical debates and have some wise opinions, because most of you came from horizontal before flipping vertical and loving it

 

[Wick420]

Hey Vman. Im not sure of your question. you say you have grown both horizontal and vert... so have your yeilds been worse with vert? I believe vert works for both high and low wattage lights. the same principles apply like maximum use of the light, and more efficient use of space. You also need to factor in what you are comfortable with. I have done both horizontal scrog and vert scrog and honestly I am probably gonna go back to horizontal just for its simplicity. With low wattage lights in any setup your timing is crucial. If you veg to little your yeild suffers and too long your gonna choke out your plants. Low wattage lights in cooltubes are great since they can get real close to the plants. This in addition to pulling large fan leaves helps me get some decent light penetration. Good luck on whatever system you decide on. Peace.

 

[vman]

Hi Wick420
Thanks passing by

It's hard to compare my yields because it wasn't the same genetic (actually Warlock, mostly indica and very branchy).

I try to imagine each colas in vertical and apply them in horizontal, and I have almost the same number as a well trained horizontal scrog. Yeah, more buds along the plant, but tops aren't as huge as horizontal. I think with a single small lamp, benefits of vertical are limited.
A dual 250w vertical setup is totally different and solves issues mentionned for a better light distribution (I can't upgrade my wattage)

 

[hurdy gurdy man]

Thanks for the information, guys.

I've been kicking around the benefits of vertical on a small scale, and you've brought up some good points that personal use growers need to be aware of.

I hope others having experience with 150-400 HPS vertical grows will speak up.

 

[funkervogt]

250W in vertical has worked better for me than horizontal. In both cases, SCROG is important to maximize the footprint.

I've done tests with and without vertical SCROG, and by far without the training stuff doesn't do as well. Maximizing that footprint is the biggest challenge in low-wattage vertical setups.

Here are some picks. My current grow uses the maximum amount of available light with the vertical canopy. The last one did not, and the yield was miserable despite awesome plants.

Some picks when I've maxed out the canopy space.

My current grow. Week 3 and 4 respectively. The last pic shows them from behind - notice how little leaf growth there is in the areas without direct exposure. Unfortunately, my fourth plant was a herm and had to be tossed.




Past grow. These were witches week in week 5 or 6.

 

[vman]

Hey Funkervogt and Hurdy Gurdy

Hurdy, with 400w, light penetration is very different than these tiny 150 or 250. There is less questioning for maximizing light effectiveness, because penetration can hold the whole stretch height by the top (yeah, for indicas ), so you can choose almost every little setup you want. But this is just my theory, I never reached 400w ^^'

Funkervogt, my goal is absolutely not to criticize your grow, but with your first pics, don't you think that if you transpose your actual results in an horizontal scrog by moving your pots closer and imagine an horizontal setup, you have actually less buds in vertical? (assuming that this strain have a little stretch)
For this grow, did you managed light position in the same way? (positionning your light higher to increase stretch or keep it down to make your plants more bushy)

For my actual grow, I tried to defoliate every front fan leaves (with mylar on the back, I though defoliate the remaining fan leaves to allow back buds gaining a little more light, but this is my first "defoliated grow" so I didn't dare to do it severely. There is a huge thread about defoliating, with pro and cons... Here ). I'll see if it works or not.

Another question: For the first time, I putted my fences at the "limit" of effectiveness (250w, 1 foot from the bulb) to put more plants. But I think I'll have less yield even if my plants are budding everywhere.

What is the best: loosing space/plants in a little radius with "huge" buds, or having a large radius with more plants/buds but more thin?
Before, I used to put fences in the most effective radius and had a dense canopy, BUT the real canopy radius was almost around the cooltube. If I unroll my canopy, I have a very little scrog, you know what I mean?

Rha this is frustrating to try to explain some complicated thoughts in another language. Even if I understand everything, as a result, I managed to say 10% of my thoughts... And I don't wanna use some automated translators (It's even worse with translators and I make already too many spell mistakes lol, sorry for that).

 

[vman]

Next grow, I think I'll try this way: both vertical and horizontal scrog (almost like a try I made but not tested Here )
Vertical scrog will be circular, or like an octogon

I let my clones growing. Once they reach the top of my box, lower branches are putted on the horizontal scrog, and the plants are disposed on the vertical scrog, like a spiral or zigzag, and flip to 12/12.
Maybe the top of each branch would be in front of other lower plant's trunk, to fill this unproductive space.

Yeah there is a huge difference between blueprints and reality, but the idea is here.

I also know that the horizontal scrog will be less productive with vertical lamp.

For the heat suck from the bulb, a good extract with large radius, like a funnel, will substitute actual honeywell under the bulb

Here is an ugly blueprint to explain what I think.

Is it a good idea?

 

[thinkin]

vert and 150 hps

vert and 150 hps

vertical cool tube 150 hps
swc gh lucas to h3ad
4 plants

Cabinet (20X20X30) has been producing decent numbers.
Light between the plants approach
(in your sketch top one)

Perpetual worked better. 2 plants = qp of Donkey Ds
Finishing ones hung over the starting babies.
Also allowed easy access to all the plants.

Full cabinet... results to follow but not getting 8! maybe 5-6ish.
No Donkey Ds this run. As you can see from pictures, there was no room left! No light escaping the HID. Burned a bunch of buds too. Next time, might run 3 plants for full cabinet.

Sweet spot for 150 is very small. Making scrogging close essential for big buds everyone desires. But too close and the buds burn.
Looking back, level of difficulty to get big buds with small light is like threading a needle with your eyes closed. Considering more light= more heat= more fan noise makes a difficult balance for us who are worried about prying eyes/ears. Thus, expect decent buds and better than horizontal yields.

Try FIM, Vert, Cooltube, Scrog.
When you look back, I guarantee you will shake your head at horizontal unmanaged grows.



Peace
big frostie yields for all. (even the horizontal ones)

 

[unthing]

Personally I haven't reached superior yields using small light vertically (150w) but I've lacked in many departments to reach it.

But like Thinkin here has showed and members like Polipaja and Propoline (check them out) have demonstrated impressive yields with vertical scrog/few plants 150w.

Of course many people have perfected their system and constantly hit 1 gpw or above with small light in traditional horizontal way, like Verdant Green with his 250w mod scrog.

I quess the answer is still out there

 

[vman]

hey guys

Have you tried some "spinning vertical scrog''?
The huge issue is to have access inside the donut (unable to build some separated screens)

The draw shows a simplified common vertical scrog (I have often some colas who grows in front of the screen which have branchs on it. They are hiding the back colas, and I never have some "hedgehog" grow of buds inside the scrog. Most of colas are growing quite vertically, and the bottom of the plant isn't as productive as I want)
Maybe I missed a way to train my grow in vertical.......

The other part of the draw is a spinning way to manage branchs (like I tried to explain in my last post).
Every cola would be tied on the screen. Finally, the scrog should be more flat, and the more productive parts of the plant would hide the next trunk.

Have you tried some similar way?

 

[vman]

Another way I didn't tested (due to cab dimensions , I haven't enough space to manage branches like that) is to manage vertical scrog strictly like an horizontal one (and not using fences like a back support)

I found helpful pics Here from https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=84913
(400w, I know. Branches management are what I was trying to say)

 

[HushemFlupskluk]

Hey Vman.

Access within the donut is an issue which can be solved. Everybody makes up something to make it accesable, or perhaps not.

Personally I like the idea of one growunit that does not need to be accesed at all.

 

[vman]

Yeah Hush, this is another issue, with a lot of solutions, like you said.
I tried different ways for my cab (only front access), to finish by a entire removable system (pots, blumats and scrog, with a pulley to remove light by the top).

With fences on the back of the plants, I must have access inside the donut (removing fan leaves, arrange buds exposure etc)
Marlo's old setup inspired me so much for my actual grow, but I still have issues mentionned in my #10 post (left pic) with buds exposure

Another way from g-man to manage front fences: http://grower.cz/home/potw.php?action=show&photoid=24884 from http://grower.cz/forum/showthread.php?threadid=11193

I really think that This way is the perfect way to maximize vertical scrog effectiveness.
With "flat" vertical plants on a fence, it's hard to counter the apical growth of our lovely girls, even if you put your light low, pinch or tie the top of plants/main branches (ok, you can counter it, but how many hours per day you will spend the head inside the donut ^^ And does the result will pay back? Harmonized little buds or some huge buds with some little ones?)

 

[HushemFlupskluk]

Vman I do hope you find your way in this difficult setup. It is something that I also am working on.

Recently I am testing this tactic 'scorched leaf'. Trimming the leafs from inside close to the bulb. In order to minimise the things to do inside the donut I also calculated the position of the plants/bulb. During veg I only had to acces the room 2-3 times to adjust bulb height. So far only one time I had to scrog the setup. After this I basically let it all grow, only accessing the room once a week with a scissor to cut away all scorched leafs or to adjust bulb height.

The plants grow inside that fence here.

 

[vman]

Nice way
I saw your posts (and was very very interested by your over pressure technique. I'll try it next round)

All of your big buds are on top of the donut? How about the bottom of each plant?

In my setup, buds are gratually bigger from bottom to top, so light efficiency isn't well used for the low half part of plants (generally, because I have some big buds starting from the bottom, but hiding some parts of plants who are tied on the fence). It's more like a "half bush", and don't have a regular canopy.

 

[HushemFlupskluk]

GL doing it dude! Keep in mind that a humidifier should be used in order to reach optimals.

My buds are more long. I put the bulb a bit low in order to accieve an optimal lumen rendement. The lower leafs still live because of this I guess

 

[vman]

I'll try 4 different ways to manage scrog and compare yields (clones) in the same run. Nothings better to have answers

#1: fence on the back (light-plant-fence). Tie branches horizontally and clipping (or lst) every top few days before 12/12 (like some fruit trees), and see how branches will be filling by buds

#2: my "regular" way to grow vertical. Fence on the back, topping one time, 6/8 main branches, almost like a half bush

#3: front fence with a twisted plant. Every bud will go thru the fence

#4: managing vertical scrog like flat one: plant on the back of the fence, every top thru it, lollipopping.

I'll do this with the same veg time to see proportionally what is better.

Did I forgot other ways to train plants with a fence?

For you guys, which way should work better?

Edit: Each 1/4 curved screen from circular scrog (29.5 inches diameter) is 21.6 (perimeter) x 19.6 (height) inches

 

[HushemFlupskluk]

I wouldn't be to worried about what way to scrog that twiggs to the fence. Worrie about taking areas with green!

GL again dude

 

[tngreen]

love the discussion guys, keep it goin. I currently use a 250w HPS in horizontal hood and havent made the plunge yet for mostly all the reason discussed.

One thing i see being over looked is the criticalness of root space. From all my reading on vert, root space almost becomes even more important to ensure maximized yields. If we are wanting the plant to stretch and give us lots of budsites, the root space needs to able to back it up.

If you were used to using say a 2 gal pot horiz and keeping the plants semi short to get the tight nodes and then go to a 2 gal vert and stretch it out and grow taller with more budsites, each site will be smaller as you are using the same rootspace. This is all considering that you were using all of the 2gal space to begin with.

Thoughts?