Long Water Hose Runs

[Numboard]

Looking for the best, cheap hose/tubing to send water above ground 400+ feet.
So we have a pretty decent sized piece of property, our reservoirs are in a shed like structure 400+ feet away from where our plot is, last year we went with the cheapest possible garden hoses we could find. This ended up being a huge mistake and we had to replace two of them in one season, what would happen is after our pump turned off up at the reservoir shed the water in the hose would continue running down the hill inside the hose to the plants creating a vaccum in the hose and sucking it completely flat, then the hose sat in the sun baking while completely sucked flat and the inside of the hose would bond to itself, next time the pump would come on the hose could not separate and we got no flow. So after I saw this I added a one way check valve so that when the pump turned off air could be sucked in behind the water to keep it from developing a hard vacuum but the hose was so weak it kinda still did it anyways. Digging a trench or using PVC above ground is out of the question, we want to get a reliable hose that we can get at least two or three seasons out of (depending on cost) we roll up and put away all of our equipment for the winter.

Right now I am looking at pure rubber hot water hoses but these are about 100 bucks for a hundred feet making it almost 400 bucks to do the run, thinking about PEX as well but I'm worried about the temperature shifts and cracking. Any of you all got any advice for me before I drop 400 bucks on some nice rubber hose?

 

[queequeg152]

this is a fantastic example of why you need a vacuum breaker on transfer piping AND an air release valve.

i cant visualize how you used a check valve to allow air into the piping, but im assuming this was your pseudo vacuum breaker.

what you want to do, IMHO, is create a small assembly of rigid piping(material is your choice). you want to have your vacuum breaker at least a 12" above the highest part of your piping including the pump. from this vacuum breaker you want to run a small section of horizontal pipe, slightly inclined such that it is slightly higher than the vacuum breaker.

onto this slightly elevated section of pipe you will include the air release.

you should pump first to the air release. then to the vacuum breaker.

what will happen, is when the pump is powered down. the vacuum breaker will suck in air such that a siphon is impossible.

when you power on the system most of the air will then escape out of your air release valve.

your hose collapsed because you have variable elevation here, and you are not allowing air inside the hose to replace the water drained out of the hose. the atmosphere is then allowed to crush the pipe flat.

the vacuum breaker will prevent this. it will draw in air once pressure provided by your pump is removed.
the problem now is... you let a shit load of air into your piping assembly. the air release is used here to remove that air, and allow the flow of water to proceed without turbulence and resistance issues associated with air traped in the peaks of your pipeline elevation gradient.

i also suggest that you use a simple lay flat hose for your transfer piping... yes these are not able to accommodate large angles as garden hoses are, but they will be cheaper per foot of volume. get like... a 1.5" - 2" diameter lay flat hose. one that is uv rated and moderatly abrasion resistant. get one that you can repair with either field installed couplers, or with solvent welded patches.

where ever this hose crosses area of traffic, such as paths or lawn that needs to be mowed, bury an identical diameter rigid pipe. bed this pipe in a gravel base, and stabilized sand the entire length and depth of the pipe itself + 2 or 3 inches above the crown on the pipe.

you can use your own prefererences for the couplings here... the plastic ones may or may not satisfy you. just be aware that the galvanized and brass couplings cost an astonishing sum.

flip this hose over every year or so, such that it weathers evenly.

 

[DoubleTripleOG]

I use the never-kink hoses(they kink anyways). Try burying it a little with surrounding vegetation. I had one hooked up for 3 years without any probs. A shut-off on the end of the house would stop the going flat part as well. Turn it off when your done watering, and leave water inside the hose.

 

[RckyMtRdnk]

I have helped use the rolls of black poly water line to run over a mile and a half from a spring head at the rainbow gatherings. We piped water to camps and kitchens all over the national forest. Over three hundred kitchens and camps had water one year. That black poly is tough as hell and we used the same rolls for years, usually until the forest service confiscates them. It comes in all different sizes and is at most hardware stores. I have even used the bigger sizes on my two inch gas powered water pump to pump water out of a gorge about fifty foot deep.

 

[Numboard]

So our res's are at a higher elevation than the drip emitters at the plot, once the water is sent down the hose there are no further valves, its an open drain essentially. The pump is sitting next to our res's on the floor.
To prevent siphoning when the pump is shut off by the timer we are using a bog standard irrigation valve with a 24v solenoid also powered by the timer, the pump and valve go on/off in unison, the check valve is installed physically above all of these components like a standpipe right at the outlet to the valve, when the pump comes on the pressure in the hose increases shutting the valve and water is sent down the hill, the moment the pump and valve shuts off the check valve allows air into the hose, I have verified this, it opens right up and air rushes in behind the water. Air being in the system afterwards has proven to be a non issue.

I like your suggestion with the lay flat hose, I will look into this, perhaps a 1" pump discharge type hosing bought on a spool?
I am not sure what the difference between an air release and vaccum breaker is exactly but i am very confident that the way we have it set up is keeping the hose happy, it was just super shitty soft pvc stuff that couldn't handle the temp changes. I am worried about the lay flat hose doing the same thing though which is why im kinda shooting for a more rigid hosing that will keep its shape provided it is not subject to any vacuum crushing (which we will closely monitor) Next weekend I will be able to provide some pictures and a video if required.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, lets dig a little deeper.

 

[vostok]

400 ft...? I'd be looking at drilling a well, or going pioneer agriculture ..with water windmill and storage tank...cheap 2nd hand...?

 

[Numboard]

I don't really want to build another building to keep my res's in, also running power or buying solar for air pumps, it makes waay more sense to run a hose I can assure you.
Maybe someday I can build a growing sanctuary down there but for now its gonna be a hose.

 

[queequeg152]

i see, so you have no valves at the bottom of this hill...

a vacuum breaker simply allows air into the piping such that a siphon cannot exist.
its basically a hydraulic decoupler, isolating one water system from another by means of an air gap.

an air release allows for the air that the vacuum breaker let in, to escape back into the atmosphere.

you are probably having 0 issues with air because velocity of the fluid is high with respect to the hydraulic diameter of the pipe, and or you have a very smooth grade with no localized high spots. Or, you just to have a benchmark to compare against.

small diameter pipe is inefficient with respect to head loss. however you probably dont care given the simplicity of this setup.

what CAN happen... is you get pockets of air trapped in high spots, or places where gradient changes towards the negative direction with the flow in the same direction.

when you have air trapped, it is squeezed a bit, and changes-abruptly, the profile of the pipe causing rather nasty turbulance and loss of head and rate of flow. in extreeme cases, it will stop all flow.

when i was working, we would design water lines with air release man holes every 1000ish feet, where the most extreme of these grade brakes were expected to be.
no whether or not the contractor installed these air releases correctly is another story. you are supposed to track the gradients of these pipes as they are installed, with what is basically an accurate pipeline clinometer... but rarely are things done properly in the field.

 

[Numboard]

Makes a lot of sense, diddnt think about the high spots, I can also imagine for instance if the pump has just shut off, and the water is still flowing down hill, then someone steps on the line creates a momentary seal and the vacuum starts from that point in the line down.
The only reason we are using a pump is because we want some positive pressure to make sure the drip emitters all flow close to the same amount, have had lots of issues with gravity feed in the past.
I am liking the idea of a rigid poly pipe that would resist internal sealing and have enough stiffness to resist crushing just a slight amount, I think the hot water hosing I was looking at would be good for this too. I am worried about the soft pvc lay flat discharge hose bonding to itself on the inside and then not letting water through, i'm sure they are designed better than the shit-tastic garden hose we bought last year but I want to MAKE sure this time.

 

[queequeg152]

you should consider pressure compensating drippers. they will eliminate issues with variable elevation.

regarding the hose sticking together. its an issue i had not considered honestly. i suppose if you were to let the hose reach high temperatures, its a possibility. im sure there are guarantees against this provided by the manufacturer... considered they are normally stored outside, in the heat, in reels. even if it sticks, i have a hard time seeing it not unstick itself.

pvc is not the only material used in these hoses... infact i think polyurethane on fabric is cheaper and more commonplace.

 

[Numboard]

yeah I kinda figured as much given the circumstances you just mentioned, Might give the layflat stuff a try if I can find it in a color that isnt super bright and obvious, Im not that worried about it but I don't want to have a ugly blue stripe across my property, if I can find the stuff in a decent color ill give it a shot, otherwise im kinda leaning toward the rigid black poly.
We're actually using sprayers rather than drippers, still kinda figuring out whats gonna work best for us considering clogs etc, gonna play with mesh filters and all that fun stuff although the sprayers we used last year did pretty good.

 

[queequeg152]

im partial to the netafim spray stakes myself. you can get them with pressure compensating drippers if you like.


not sure if they are available in colors other than blue. blue seems to be far and away the most common color ive seen.