Lighting question
- Thread starter toofat
- Start date
Hey TF -- 
I just posted a Lighting question as well... And then saw this post. I am no expert, by any stretch of the imgination. But here are my thoughts on this matter.
First... Wow! 1000 watts of Fluoro? That'd be a mess o' Fluoros, for sure! I know they have those killa CFLs that rank upwards of 500 watt equivalents... But I believe in actual wattage, they're much lower. Besides, its Lumens per square foot that you should really be look'n at in this case, I believe...
Next, the biggie diff between Fluoros and HPS is the Light Spectrum of each. Totally different... In flower, unless I am mistaken, Cannabis likes light in the 2K Kelvin range {redish/orangish}. Fluoros, even the Full Spectrum Gro Lights are more in the 5K range, which are said to be good for Vegging, but not so hot for Flowering...
Hope that helps! And if I am off base with any of that, hopefully someone more knowledgable will shoot me in the shorts for it! {Which would be just fine, as I am wearing my Kevlar Underware today.
}
-BuzzBob
I just posted a Lighting question as well... And then saw this post. I am no expert, by any stretch of the imgination. But here are my thoughts on this matter.
First... Wow! 1000 watts of Fluoro? That'd be a mess o' Fluoros, for sure! I know they have those killa CFLs that rank upwards of 500 watt equivalents... But I believe in actual wattage, they're much lower. Besides, its Lumens per square foot that you should really be look'n at in this case, I believe...
Next, the biggie diff between Fluoros and HPS is the Light Spectrum of each. Totally different... In flower, unless I am mistaken, Cannabis likes light in the 2K Kelvin range {redish/orangish}. Fluoros, even the Full Spectrum Gro Lights are more in the 5K range, which are said to be good for Vegging, but not so hot for Flowering...
Hope that helps! And if I am off base with any of that, hopefully someone more knowledgable will shoot me in the shorts for it! {Which would be just fine, as I am wearing my Kevlar Underware today.
}-BuzzBob
welll then.....
welll then.....
im not the light guru either...... but i did read sum where
oO( i belive it was a sunsystems book)
that it take's 40-50 4foot 40w tubes to = one 400w m/h or hps
all go into my books and see if i can find it again......... to make sure i am right.....but im sure that is what i seen.....
like i said im not a guru
but if you do the math.....40 x Lumens of tubes = 80,000
(2000 or so ?)
a m/h-hps is only 55,000 but a strong point of light at one spot!
40 tubes on the other hand would be a 10 x10 x10 room full..... and taking you under the per foot range......
welll then.....
im not the light guru either...... but i did read sum where
oO( i belive it was a sunsystems book)
that it take's 40-50 4foot 40w tubes to = one 400w m/h or hps
all go into my books and see if i can find it again......... to make sure i am right.....but im sure that is what i seen.....
like i said im not a guru
but if you do the math.....40 x Lumens of tubes = 80,000
(2000 or so ?)
a m/h-hps is only 55,000 but a strong point of light at one spot!
40 tubes on the other hand would be a 10 x10 x10 room full..... and taking you under the per foot range......
Yeah, prob do better, because you could get the lights so close to the buds. You can also buy bulbs in the 2k range for flouros. That is the beuty, the bulbs are cheap and can cover the entire kelvin scale.
G
Guest
If I'm not mistaken from what I read and heard the light intensity is'nt enough to penetrate the canopy to get to the lower bud sites. I just use them as supplimentals but if any flouro wizards know better let me know.
Blatant
Blatant
Fuzzy&Sauce BBG
Member
toofat-- It take 3 125watt are 3 200watt Compact to equal a 1,000 of light.... And you will have more points of light. Just do not let the get to big...
Measuring Lighting “Grow Power”:
Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is the basic standard measure for grow light efficacy. This light measurement system uses a spectral curve that is similar to the one shown in Figure 1 as a Standard. Commercial horticultural lighting manufacturers generally express the PAR system in terms of PAR Watts, thereby providing an simple means of comparing the available “food value” that your plants can utilize to grow. PAR Watts also provides an easy way of comparing different brands and varieties of HPS and MH lights for the amount of plant grow power.
However, plant photosynthesis involves four different pigments that convert the light energy into plant usable energy. Simply put, each specific pigment responds to specific spectra of light. The average response for all the pigments is shown in the PAR curve. The relationships between the amounts of activation of each specific pigment have also been shown to cause physical changes in plant development and physiology. The blue end of the spectrum appears to be predominantly responsible for elongation and green growth development while the red end of the spectrum has been shown to increase fruit development. Figure 2 provides a graphic summary of this.
In the modern high-yield garden, this is commonly applied. Blue light sources, such as MH and cold (6,400K+) CFL’s are used for the vegetative stage where the plant builds its green growth and root foundation. While red light sources, namely HPS and warm (2,700K) CFL’s are used in the bloom or fruiting stage in order to focus the plants energy on building the largest fruit size and quality. These are the tricks that gardeners use in order to generally compensate for the less than ideal spectrum provided by commonly available HID lights.
About CFL’s:
CFL’s are the only singular lights currently available that can be specifically tailored to ideally match the PAR curve. The CFL uses a phosphor coating to convert its internal UV light into visible light spectrum. If the coating is altered, the light spectrum is directly altered. It is a relatively simple matter to “dial-in” the ideal PAR curve spectrum by applying the proper phosphor coatings. Additionally, unlike MH or HPS lights, multi-phosphor (properly designed) CFL’s emit a much broader and smoother spectral curve than the typically peaky narrow spectrum produced by commercially available HID lights.
I understand that some readers have a very strong dislike for CFL lighting technology, and from the way CFL’s have been marketed to the gardening community in the past, this is understandable. However, that being said, CFL’s are ideal for spectral supplementation (not replacement) to HPS lights. We have fielded a number of reports where gardeners were using 1,000 watt MH bulbs for vegetative growth. Based on the broader spectrum offered by the 6,400K CFL, they replaced the 1,000 watt MH until an equal level of vegetative growth was achieved over an equal period of time. In these independently run tests, it took three 125 watt 6,400K side-light blue CFL’s (375 watts combined draw) to replace one 1,000 watt MH. Although, we do not recommend CFL’s as direct replacements for HID lights, especially in the bloom stage, these informal tests do illustrate how much can be gained from a light source that has a broader and fuller spectrum than traditional HID lighting.
This is why we feel very strongly about supplementing the red spectrum of HPS lights with a properly installed, good quality, multi-phosphor blue spectrum CFL. The gains in photosynthetic efficacy, plant health, and yield are well worth the relatively small extra investment. Figure 3 depicts the spectral output of a commonly used, name brand 1000W HPS light alone and when used in conjunction with our side-light blue CFL’s placed inside of our Pro-Gro 1250 vented hood. The increase in essential near UV and blue light is obvious.
Simply put, your plants see light as another food source, i.e. not much different from fertilizer, all the CFL is doing is adding the missing “trace-elements” necessary to achieve maximum potential from your crop. It’s pretty simple.
Sample Garden Applications:
The following illustrations provide an example for building a “dream” garden without having to go through all the calculations necessary to obtain ideal lighting values in a set room size. The space occupied by the garden is 12 feet by 12 feet by approximately seven to eight feet tall. In future articles, this is the standard garden that will serve as a reference to illustrate different concepts and techniques. In all instances, it is recommended that the garden walls be lined with silvered Mylar or similar reflective material in order to maximize on the available light produced by the grow lights. In all instances, it is also recommend that HPS lights are used in conjunction with properly designed blue spectrum CFL’s in order to maximize the plants photosynthetic capabilities and deliver the best possible plant health and fruit yield. However, should you choose to make your own reflectors, tests have shown that the individual constructor use one reflector for the main HPS bulb and one separate reflector for the CFL bulbs at each bulb site with an approximate ratio of 500 watts of HPS to 125 watts of blue CFL. Even if the gardener chooses not to go with the mixed spectrum concept at all, these examples should still prove as a useful basis for further development.
Figure 4: The 4-By Soiless
General Notes:
1) Five gallon bag or rigid plant pots
2) Vegetative growth cycle
a. Move plants to one side of room so that they can be veged under two lights in order to conserve power
b. Use two 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs or
c. Use a balanced spectrum hood featuring a 1000 watt HPS plus two side-light blue CFL’s
d. Set light on cycle to approximately 18 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
e. Vegetative cycle time will vary from 1.5 to three weeks depending upon plant variety, environment and fertilizer
3) Bloom (fruiting) cycle
a. Distribute plants evenly throughout room
b. Replace the two currently installed 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs with 1,000 watt HPS main lights or
c. If you are using the Pro-Gro 1250’s, step “b.” is unnecessary
d. Plug-in remaining two reflectors, so that all four reflectors are operational
e. Set light on cycle for approximately 12 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
f. During the bloom cycle, it is absolutely imperative that no light is allowed to enter the room when the main lights are off. If light enters, you will get reduced yield and potentially obtain no fruit at all under extreme instances
Figure 5: The 4-By Flat-Table
General Notes:
1) Select your favored method of growing. Flat-table can be configured for soiless, hydroponic flood-drain, aeroponic, constant drip, deep-water culture etc.
2) Vegetative growth cycle
a. Depending on the growing method you have selected, you may be able to utilize one table for the vegetative cycle by moving the plants onto this one active table
b. Use 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs or
c. Use a balanced spectrum hood featuring a 1000 watt HPS plus two side-light blue CFL’s
d. Set light on cycle to approximately 18 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
e. Vegetative cycle time will vary from one to six days depending upon plant variety, number of plants, environment and fertilizer
3) Bloom (fruiting) cycle
a. Distribute plants evenly on flat-tables
b. Replace any currently installed 1000 watt MH conversion bulbs with 1000 watt HPS main lights or
c. If you are using the pro-gro 1250’s, step “b.” is unnecessary
d. Plug-in remaining two reflectors, so that all four reflectors are operational
e. Set light on cycle for approximately 12 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
f. During the bloom cycle, it is absolutely imperative that no light is allowed to enter the room when the main lights are off. If light enters, you will get reduced yield and potentially obtain no fruit at all under extreme instances
Figure 6: The 4-By Soiless with 3-D Side-lighting
Same general instructions that apply to the 4-By Soiless garden also apply here. The concept of 3-D side-lighting is to enhance crop yield and quality by providing increased lighting to the lower regions of the plant and further light spectrum enhancements.
Please Note: These diagrams are intended strictly for academic purposes only. The diagrams do not constitute actual plans and as such are not formally approved for construction or approved to meet building, electrical or fire and safety codes. If you have any specific questions, please refer to a qualified professional.
Summary:
Thank you for staying with us. This concludes the High-Performance Garden Lighting series.
In the next issue of Maximum Yield magazine, we will cover the very unique topic of Safety and Security.
Richard Tamassy is CEO of Broad-Leaf Grow Gear Inc.
and heads up the product design team
Sauce.. This Is from MaxYield... Peace
Measuring Lighting “Grow Power”:
Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is the basic standard measure for grow light efficacy. This light measurement system uses a spectral curve that is similar to the one shown in Figure 1 as a Standard. Commercial horticultural lighting manufacturers generally express the PAR system in terms of PAR Watts, thereby providing an simple means of comparing the available “food value” that your plants can utilize to grow. PAR Watts also provides an easy way of comparing different brands and varieties of HPS and MH lights for the amount of plant grow power.
However, plant photosynthesis involves four different pigments that convert the light energy into plant usable energy. Simply put, each specific pigment responds to specific spectra of light. The average response for all the pigments is shown in the PAR curve. The relationships between the amounts of activation of each specific pigment have also been shown to cause physical changes in plant development and physiology. The blue end of the spectrum appears to be predominantly responsible for elongation and green growth development while the red end of the spectrum has been shown to increase fruit development. Figure 2 provides a graphic summary of this.
In the modern high-yield garden, this is commonly applied. Blue light sources, such as MH and cold (6,400K+) CFL’s are used for the vegetative stage where the plant builds its green growth and root foundation. While red light sources, namely HPS and warm (2,700K) CFL’s are used in the bloom or fruiting stage in order to focus the plants energy on building the largest fruit size and quality. These are the tricks that gardeners use in order to generally compensate for the less than ideal spectrum provided by commonly available HID lights.
About CFL’s:
CFL’s are the only singular lights currently available that can be specifically tailored to ideally match the PAR curve. The CFL uses a phosphor coating to convert its internal UV light into visible light spectrum. If the coating is altered, the light spectrum is directly altered. It is a relatively simple matter to “dial-in” the ideal PAR curve spectrum by applying the proper phosphor coatings. Additionally, unlike MH or HPS lights, multi-phosphor (properly designed) CFL’s emit a much broader and smoother spectral curve than the typically peaky narrow spectrum produced by commercially available HID lights.
I understand that some readers have a very strong dislike for CFL lighting technology, and from the way CFL’s have been marketed to the gardening community in the past, this is understandable. However, that being said, CFL’s are ideal for spectral supplementation (not replacement) to HPS lights. We have fielded a number of reports where gardeners were using 1,000 watt MH bulbs for vegetative growth. Based on the broader spectrum offered by the 6,400K CFL, they replaced the 1,000 watt MH until an equal level of vegetative growth was achieved over an equal period of time. In these independently run tests, it took three 125 watt 6,400K side-light blue CFL’s (375 watts combined draw) to replace one 1,000 watt MH. Although, we do not recommend CFL’s as direct replacements for HID lights, especially in the bloom stage, these informal tests do illustrate how much can be gained from a light source that has a broader and fuller spectrum than traditional HID lighting.
This is why we feel very strongly about supplementing the red spectrum of HPS lights with a properly installed, good quality, multi-phosphor blue spectrum CFL. The gains in photosynthetic efficacy, plant health, and yield are well worth the relatively small extra investment. Figure 3 depicts the spectral output of a commonly used, name brand 1000W HPS light alone and when used in conjunction with our side-light blue CFL’s placed inside of our Pro-Gro 1250 vented hood. The increase in essential near UV and blue light is obvious.
Simply put, your plants see light as another food source, i.e. not much different from fertilizer, all the CFL is doing is adding the missing “trace-elements” necessary to achieve maximum potential from your crop. It’s pretty simple.
Sample Garden Applications:
The following illustrations provide an example for building a “dream” garden without having to go through all the calculations necessary to obtain ideal lighting values in a set room size. The space occupied by the garden is 12 feet by 12 feet by approximately seven to eight feet tall. In future articles, this is the standard garden that will serve as a reference to illustrate different concepts and techniques. In all instances, it is recommended that the garden walls be lined with silvered Mylar or similar reflective material in order to maximize on the available light produced by the grow lights. In all instances, it is also recommend that HPS lights are used in conjunction with properly designed blue spectrum CFL’s in order to maximize the plants photosynthetic capabilities and deliver the best possible plant health and fruit yield. However, should you choose to make your own reflectors, tests have shown that the individual constructor use one reflector for the main HPS bulb and one separate reflector for the CFL bulbs at each bulb site with an approximate ratio of 500 watts of HPS to 125 watts of blue CFL. Even if the gardener chooses not to go with the mixed spectrum concept at all, these examples should still prove as a useful basis for further development.
Figure 4: The 4-By Soiless
General Notes:
1) Five gallon bag or rigid plant pots
2) Vegetative growth cycle
a. Move plants to one side of room so that they can be veged under two lights in order to conserve power
b. Use two 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs or
c. Use a balanced spectrum hood featuring a 1000 watt HPS plus two side-light blue CFL’s
d. Set light on cycle to approximately 18 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
e. Vegetative cycle time will vary from 1.5 to three weeks depending upon plant variety, environment and fertilizer
3) Bloom (fruiting) cycle
a. Distribute plants evenly throughout room
b. Replace the two currently installed 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs with 1,000 watt HPS main lights or
c. If you are using the Pro-Gro 1250’s, step “b.” is unnecessary
d. Plug-in remaining two reflectors, so that all four reflectors are operational
e. Set light on cycle for approximately 12 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
f. During the bloom cycle, it is absolutely imperative that no light is allowed to enter the room when the main lights are off. If light enters, you will get reduced yield and potentially obtain no fruit at all under extreme instances
Figure 5: The 4-By Flat-Table
General Notes:
1) Select your favored method of growing. Flat-table can be configured for soiless, hydroponic flood-drain, aeroponic, constant drip, deep-water culture etc.
2) Vegetative growth cycle
a. Depending on the growing method you have selected, you may be able to utilize one table for the vegetative cycle by moving the plants onto this one active table
b. Use 1,000 watt MH conversion bulbs or
c. Use a balanced spectrum hood featuring a 1000 watt HPS plus two side-light blue CFL’s
d. Set light on cycle to approximately 18 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
e. Vegetative cycle time will vary from one to six days depending upon plant variety, number of plants, environment and fertilizer
3) Bloom (fruiting) cycle
a. Distribute plants evenly on flat-tables
b. Replace any currently installed 1000 watt MH conversion bulbs with 1000 watt HPS main lights or
c. If you are using the pro-gro 1250’s, step “b.” is unnecessary
d. Plug-in remaining two reflectors, so that all four reflectors are operational
e. Set light on cycle for approximately 12 hours - this appears to be the optimum average for different plant verities
f. During the bloom cycle, it is absolutely imperative that no light is allowed to enter the room when the main lights are off. If light enters, you will get reduced yield and potentially obtain no fruit at all under extreme instances
Figure 6: The 4-By Soiless with 3-D Side-lighting
Same general instructions that apply to the 4-By Soiless garden also apply here. The concept of 3-D side-lighting is to enhance crop yield and quality by providing increased lighting to the lower regions of the plant and further light spectrum enhancements.
Please Note: These diagrams are intended strictly for academic purposes only. The diagrams do not constitute actual plans and as such are not formally approved for construction or approved to meet building, electrical or fire and safety codes. If you have any specific questions, please refer to a qualified professional.
Summary:
Thank you for staying with us. This concludes the High-Performance Garden Lighting series.
In the next issue of Maximum Yield magazine, we will cover the very unique topic of Safety and Security.
Richard Tamassy is CEO of Broad-Leaf Grow Gear Inc.
and heads up the product design team
Sauce.. This Is from MaxYield... Peace
PreacherManZero
Member
LOA 100 watt (1000 watt incandescent equivalent) lights.
LOA 100 watt (1000 watt incandescent equivalent) lights.
LOA is now selling 100 watt (1000 watt incandescent equivalent), 85 watt (750 watt incandescent equivalent), as well as the 65 watt (500 watt incandescent equivalent) CFL's Cheapo Depot is carrying them. As a result they also dropped the price of the 65 watt units and 85 watt units.
I can't but think that at 100 watts (1000 watt incandescent equivalent) a CFL would start to overcome not being a pointsource with strong penetration like an HID. At least when you take the differences in distance from the plant into consideration.
Also these high watt CFL's do not have ballasts built into the bulb like the smaller ones. I should think that would allow for remote ballasting.
My understanding is that while the bulb of a CFL is cooler than an HID bulb, allowing it to be placed closer to the plant, the overall heat generation from bulb and ballast is not significantly less than a remote ballasted HID. If the high watt CFL's can be remote ballasted I should think this would be a real savings in heat generation in the grow area.
I have no idea what the color temperature of these bulbs are but that can be adjusted with additional lower wattage bulbs. Also I don't know what the lumens or par numbers are. I've noticed these cfl producers play pretty loose with the "incandescent equivalent" designations they use.
PMZ
LOA 100 watt (1000 watt incandescent equivalent) lights.
LOA is now selling 100 watt (1000 watt incandescent equivalent), 85 watt (750 watt incandescent equivalent), as well as the 65 watt (500 watt incandescent equivalent) CFL's Cheapo Depot is carrying them. As a result they also dropped the price of the 65 watt units and 85 watt units.
I can't but think that at 100 watts (1000 watt incandescent equivalent) a CFL would start to overcome not being a pointsource with strong penetration like an HID. At least when you take the differences in distance from the plant into consideration.
Also these high watt CFL's do not have ballasts built into the bulb like the smaller ones. I should think that would allow for remote ballasting.
My understanding is that while the bulb of a CFL is cooler than an HID bulb, allowing it to be placed closer to the plant, the overall heat generation from bulb and ballast is not significantly less than a remote ballasted HID. If the high watt CFL's can be remote ballasted I should think this would be a real savings in heat generation in the grow area.
I have no idea what the color temperature of these bulbs are but that can be adjusted with additional lower wattage bulbs. Also I don't know what the lumens or par numbers are. I've noticed these cfl producers play pretty loose with the "incandescent equivalent" designations they use.
PMZ
yeah i guess that is because the CFL producers assume you are using their products as replacements for incandescent lights and not horticultural applications so they don't have to be as prescise with the lumen and PAR numbers as we would like them to be......
I guess LOA carries the "fluorex" brand CFL i keep hearing about.....seems perfectly suited as a source of supplemental blue and UV light but have yet to hear rave reviews about using them as the primary lighting source....seen some good cab grows though.....
thanx for the info- I love fluorescent information....-kind regards, gp
I guess LOA carries the "fluorex" brand CFL i keep hearing about.....seems perfectly suited as a source of supplemental blue and UV light but have yet to hear rave reviews about using them as the primary lighting source....seen some good cab grows though.....
thanx for the info- I love fluorescent information....-kind regards, gp
PreacherManZero
Member
guineapig,
You are right they are quite blue. Both the 42 and the 65 watt bulbs burn at 6,500 degrees Kelvin. I would assume that the 85 and 100 watt varieties are the same. The 65 watt (500 watt equivalent) gives out 4,550 lumens, and as CFL"s seem to lose a little with increased wattage i'm going to guess the 85 will come in around 6750 and the 100 at maybe 8950 lumens respectivly.
I don't know because while these lights have shown up at the local depot, there is as yet no availability online even the LOA website doesn't have them yet.
And while what you say is true, I'm thinking that the CFL's supply a much fuller range of usable light. A 6500 degree CFL is supplying more warm light than a 6500 degree HID and as pointed out above adjusting the color range could be done with the addition of lower wattage warm CFL's that are readily available.
PMZ
You are right they are quite blue. Both the 42 and the 65 watt bulbs burn at 6,500 degrees Kelvin. I would assume that the 85 and 100 watt varieties are the same. The 65 watt (500 watt equivalent) gives out 4,550 lumens, and as CFL"s seem to lose a little with increased wattage i'm going to guess the 85 will come in around 6750 and the 100 at maybe 8950 lumens respectivly.
I don't know because while these lights have shown up at the local depot, there is as yet no availability online even the LOA website doesn't have them yet.
And while what you say is true, I'm thinking that the CFL's supply a much fuller range of usable light. A 6500 degree CFL is supplying more warm light than a 6500 degree HID and as pointed out above adjusting the color range could be done with the addition of lower wattage warm CFL's that are readily available.
PMZ
PreacherManZero
Member
After some further looking I found that the 100 watt bulbs produce under 7000 actual lumens not much of a gain from the 65 watt bulbs at 4550.
PMZ
PMZ
Bucket Boy
Member
Tan
Tan
That does look like a tanning booth..
Scroggin with Flouro's Sweet
Tan
That does look like a tanning booth..
Scroggin with Flouro's Sweet
G
Guest
TooFat-
A watt is a measure of power. It has absolutely nothing to do with light.
Burn1
A watt is a measure of power. It has absolutely nothing to do with light.
Burn1
Last edited:
G
Guest
How many watts do you have per square foot? Do you know how many lumens/foot also?
Latest posts
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question for sam the skunkman on the original haze- Latest: Donald Mallard
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Latest posts
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question for sam the skunkman on the original haze
- Latest: Donald Mallard
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