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Legal Pot Prompts a Question: What About Hash?

Tudo

Troublemaker
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Legal Pot Prompts a Question: What About Hash?
By GENE JOHNSON Associated Press
SEATTLE July 14, 2013 (AP)




Jim Andersen has a 40-year history with hashish, the concentrated cannabis sometimes referred to as the cognac of the marijuana world.
When he served in the Air Force in Southeast Asia, he said he smuggled it home in his boots. When he was in grad school in California, he made it with a centrifuge in a lab after hours.
So when Washington was on the verge of legalizing the sale of taxed pot last fall, Andersen decided to move back to his home state and turn his hobby into a full-time, legitimate paycheck — a business that would supply state-licensed, recreational marijuana stores with high-quality hash oil.
"Every major culture that has marijuana associated with it has hash associated with it as well," said Andersen, whose company, XTracted, already has two Seattle locations serving medical marijuana dispensaries. He said his business would help prevent such pot extracts from ending up on the black market.
Substance abuse experts are concerned that such increasingly popular, extremely potent and potentially dangerous pot extracts will be sold and that state regulators' interpretation of the recreational marijuana law will allow people to buy vastly more hash than they need for personal use.
That, they fear, will increase the chances that some of it will end up in the black market out of state.
49ab8cde56fe4c628f5b1e3318792480_mn.jpg
It's a concern not just for our kids, but for kids in neighboring states as well," said Derek Franklin, president of Washington Association for Substance Abuse and Violence Prevention.
The legal-weed law, passed by voters last fall, allows adults over 21 to possess up to an ounce of dried pot, 16 ounces of pot-infused solids such as brownies, or 72 ounces of infused liquids such as soda. When the state-licensed stores open sometime early next year, that's how much people will be allowed to buy.
The law precluded the sale of pure hash and hash oil, but didn't specifically address concentrated marijuana sales. That's led to a conversation about hash's place in the new legal-pot world.
The regulators at Washington's Liquor Control Board, who are charged with overseeing the creation of the new legal pot industry, issued draft rules this month saying hash and hash oil can be used in "marijuana-infused products" — even if the product that's being infused is just a drop of olive oil or glycerin, for example.
In effect, the stores can get around the ban on hash- or hash-oil sales by simply adding a minuscule amount of some other substance to what is otherwise nearly pure THC, the primary high-inducing compound in cannabis.
Hash oils can sell for $40, $60 or more per gram, depending on quality — meaning more tax revenue for the state. If such extracts are considered a "marijuana-infused product," people would be allowed to buy up to 16 ounces of oils in solid form, or 72 ounces in liquid form. Such transactions could run tens of thousands of dollars.
"When we set the 72-ounce limit, we were thinking about marijuana juice or tea, not a high-potency extract like that," said Alison Holcomb, the Seattle lawyer who primarily drafted Washington's law."
Holcomb said it will be up to state lawmakers to adopt new ceilings on marijuana concentrate sales early next year — before the state-licensed stores open for business. The Legislature could also tweak the law to allow for sales of pure hash and hash oil — something hash makers would like to see.
They say if they have to adulterate their product with even a drop of olive oil or glycerin, customers might instead turn to medical dispensaries or the black market.
In Colorado, which also legalized recreational pot last fall, stores will be allowed to sell hash and hash oils.
"Our goal is to replace marijuana prohibition with a system in which marijuana is regulated and taxed similarly to alcohol," said Mason Tvert, who led Colorado's legalization campaign. "Some marijuana consumers choose to use more potent forms of marijuana, just as some alcohol consumers prefer a martini or glass of scotch over a beer."
The term "hash" covers a variety of marijuana preparations, but is generally the compression or concentration of cannabis resin rich in THC.
The preparations can involve anything from the simple shaking of the resin off the plant and pressing it into bricks to the use of stainless steel, closed-loop extraction systems that cost tens of thousands of dollars, use butane or carbon dioxide as a solvent and turn out oil that is more than 90 percent THC.
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Drug-abuse prevention advocates argue the proliferation of extracts has also coincided with a dramatic rise in marijuana-related emergency room visits, often for severe panic attacks. According federal figures, there was a 62 percent jump in marijuana-related emergency room visits nationally from 2004 to 2011 — from 281,000 to 455,000.
There have also been explosions as home chemists try to make hash with sometimes dangerous solvents.
Hash oils, which are already sold at medical marijuana dispensaries around the country, can be taken by medicine droppers in liquid form, or by vaporization in the solid forms known as shatter, glass, budder or wax. By means of a metal wand, users place a "dab" about the size of a grain of rice on a glowing-hot metal stem of a pipe and inhale the resulting cloud, which delivers a powerful, nearly instantaneous high.
Andersen said many users prefer it because it gives a "cleaner" high: No plant material is burned, and people know right away what the effect is — rather than waiting an hour or more for a pot-laced brownie or other edible to kick in.
"Dabbing" has become ever more popular over the past decade; a festival in Denver this weekend (7/13-14) was devoted to it. Ralph Morgan, owner of OrganaLabs in Denver, with two medical marijuana dispensaries, said hash and other concentrates now make up nearly one-third of his business.
"This is the way the industry is going," he said

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/legal-pot-prompts-question-hash-19661518#.UeNI44zD90Q
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
I don't think hash is that popular in the USA, just that nasty BHO.

True, kinda. We're big on technology & efficiency. Solvent extraction is nothing if not efficient. Hash making isn't.

We like hash, too, but it's rare partially because other parts of the world suck up production from traditional hash making regions. Our laws changed ~30 years ago. Previously, smuggling marijuana or hash was a lesser offense. Now it's all the same, so smuggling cocaine or heroin is more attractive to pros than MJ products, simply because the profit is much greater for the same weight & risk.

Hash comes from the other side of the world, too, leading to complications, but cocaine & heroin are produced in this hemisphere.
 

HidingInTheHaze

Active member
Veteran
Hash doesn't have to be imported.

Even good domestic bubble doesn't seem all that popular.

People are all about pushing the limits, we have some of the strongest bud in history and its legal in some places, but still not good enough, they gotta have that chemical laden 80%+ thc goo. It's like the crack of weed.

I think bubble is not as popular because it is more labor intensive to produce fine quality bubble then blasting cans of butane thru a pipe.
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
Hash doesn't have to be imported.

Even good domestic bubble doesn't seem all that popular.

People are all about pushing the limits, we have some of the strongest bud in history and its legal in some places, but still not good enough, they gotta have that chemical laden 80%+ thc goo. It's like the crack of weed.

I think bubble is not as popular because it is more labor intensive to produce fine quality bubble then blasting cans of butane thru a pipe.

Not speaking with any authority, but people who go to the trouble to make bubble tend to smoke it themselves.
 

Blue Socks

Member
Why are you guys down on the BHO? I thought it was all the rage these days, they're doing 710 cups and shit.

I have bubble bags but it is a hassle to make bubble, too much mess and you don't get a huge return for your efforts some times
 

OLDproLg

Active member
Veteran
What they need is education threw experience,long experience!

As for those ASSHATS going to the hospital?
figures their will always be the weak ones that ruin everything.
an that SUCKS!
what the fuck,i can sit an smoke dabs all day with NO ill effects!
STRAIT BULL.
Lg
 

Sir_Syzurp

Member
I have seen someone faint after taking their very first dab ever lol, they coughed so hard and long they couldn't catch enough breath and blacked out for a few seconds ROFL.
 
C

Chamba

Let's not confuse things here....there's a huge difference between hash and oils. The former, either produced by dry sifted or ice water methods, is hash.....when cannabis plant matter is introduced to petrochemicals, alcohol or other liquid chemicals, the resin heads are dissolved and the end result is oil...hash and oil are as different as making love to a pretty girl and having sex with a robot with a silicone skin.

Lets hope the controllers do not ban hash based on a few bad reports about petrochemical derived oil overdoses!

Hashish is the future, anyone who smokes bud needs to inhale 10 lungfuls of burnt plant matter to get one lungful of THC resin smoke......when it makes sense to remove the tar laden plant matter and smoke the stuff that gets you high (without all that tar) with just one inhalation
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
Both hash & hash oil are largely artifacts of export & smuggling across cannabis hostile borders & territory. They represent a concentration of value into a smaller & more easily transportable package.

Traditional hash production is extremely labor intensive & also "lossy", leaving a lot of psychoactive material in the discard. It's for poor people in remote regions who have a lot of raw material & a need for a readily transportable high value cash crop. Too bad that the people at the production end don't get a much bigger piece of the final consumer price.

Ice hash is a way to get quality smokeables from trim that would otherwise be discarded.

Oil is a way to wring out every bit of psychoactive material into very concentrated form, and is quite useful for medical purposes requiring ingestion of high doses, situations like cancer treatment. Recreationally, it's more of an extreme sport kind of deal, not for the faint of heart. Dosage is an important aspect of achieving pleasurable effects from cannabis, and that's harder to achieve with oil. Not everybody finds unpredictable high doses to be pleasurable.

A64 allows concentrates, so they won't be going away any time RSN.

We may see industrial methods of ice hash production, which could provide very clean high quality material at a relatively low price.

Pardon me if I'm telling a lot of members what they already know. Sometimes discussion here inspires me to write things that I end up posting in other places, as well, places where open minded people want factual information about something they're unfamiliar with. It's a way to make a positive contribution to the movement, to present an honest & friendly image to the outside. I depend on members to help me keep the facts straight.
 
C

Chamba

The recent increase in butane extracted oil use is mainly due to automatic trimming machines which thrash and mash the trim so much that just about all the resin heads are squashed and smeared all over the trimmings....dissolving the trim in petrochemicals such as butane and in other solvents like alcohol is just about the best way to extract the ruptured resin heads.

and I know it will be hard to imagine right now, but as legal bud production increases and prices drop down much lower than current prices, we will see hash use increase and bud smoking decrease to the point where smoking bud will be rare and most hash will be made from (untrimmed or partly)
bud.
 

Infinitesimal

my strength is a number, and my soul lies in every
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hash doesn't have to be imported.

Even good domestic bubble doesn't seem all that popular.

People are all about pushing the limits, we have some of the strongest bud in history and its legal in some places, but still not good enough, they gotta have that chemical laden 80%+ thc goo. It's like the crack of weed.

I think bubble is not as popular because it is more labor intensive to produce fine quality bubble then blasting cans of butane thru a pipe.

correction good bubble doesn't seem all that prevalent, but then neither is high quality oil made from AAA product with pure butane.

so if legal, the supply would be there and the demand would grow... IMO

but yeah its way easier to blast than to make full melt bubble, plus the yield on the BHO is much higher than the full melt.
 
C

Chamba

so if legal, the supply would be there and the demand would grow... IMO

You may be right. ...the big downside to butane derived oils is it's just so damn messy to use, what is needed is some type of dispenser that does away with all the finicky, sticky mucking around required.

and the market will decide......but I get the feeling that when hundreds of tons of hash and oils are produced in the USA and the price difference between the following 3 types, very pure dry sifted resin with that has lots of flavor, even purer Bubblebag ice water hash and expertly made and even more potent butane oils, is similar then dry sift will command a much greater share of the market......mainly because it's easy and not messy to handle, nothing has been rinsed away and nothing has been added, also with re-legalization, dry sift will be sold and used in an unpressed form to ensure you are smoking the complete un-ruptured, unchanged essence of the plant.

but if innovations in vaporizers continue (and in my opinion, they have a long way to go) and they become more popular, then more whole bud and less hash will be used. In the future, it's possible too that burning and inhaling any type of plant matter will become illegal, first it will happen to tobacco, then bud and hash later on which will make vapes take over....one thing is for sure we will see many changes over the next 5, 10 or 20 years! not just with vapes, but with all facets of cannabis.
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
I suspect we'll see a lot of change as legalization progresses. Probably one of the first things to go will be the emphasis on pure potency.

That probably seems strange, but alcohol provides the model for that. Lots of people prefer beer or wine because they like the taste & because they don't have to get drunk to get a buzz. It's easy to regulate the dose. They want the same attributes in their cannabis. They want to be able to toke a little all day at the lake, the beach, the game or the backyard barbeque & enjoy themselves w/o getting blasted.

Dry sift hash, I think, can be produced on an industrial scale, with blended products as a result. Some varieties can be grown strictly for flavor, others for potency, still others for the entourage effect of the cannabinoid profile & blended together to create products of distinctive taste, high, & potency. Brand loyalty will develop, and consumers can buy products they know are consistent & predictable in taste & effect. We think of hash as extremely potent, but it doesn't have to be that way, at all. It depends on the potency of the cultivars used in the blending process.

In that, we'll probably see a lot of seeded outdoor cannabis used in the process, for a variety of reasons. It's easier to grow. It has a different taste. Seed has food value for animals & humans. Traditional hash is made from seeded bud, and that's part of the reason it tastes the way it does and why the high has particular properties.

Contrary to what Chamba offers, I think it'll mostly be pressed product for ease of handling, but that's just speculation.

I also think there will always be a place for gourmet varietals of bud & hash, like wine, and that some of it will be imported. The biggest reason cannabis is illegal in other places is often Uncle Sam's influence. W/O that, producers from many parts of the world will be able to put their product into the world market.
 

Dkgrower

Active member
Veteran
True, kinda. We're big on technology & efficiency. Solvent extraction is nothing if not efficient. Hash making isn't..


Making oil takes way more time - you can make kilos in houres


I just think you have not realized the potential in hash production
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
I suspect we'll see a lot of change as legalization progresses. Probably one of the first things to go will be the emphasis on pure potency.

Contrary to what Chamba offers, I think it'll mostly be pressed product for ease of handling, but that's just speculation.

I sadly have to disagree here. I fully appreciate the potency argument and that one, harkening back to beer, is correct as far as it goes. The same market returned post-Volkstead Act for the reasons you describe. Plus, people like beer. It's been around for a VERY long time. Beer may be many things - but a FAD is not one of them.

But I think the closest thing to beer is a delivery via pre-rolled cigarettes of a listed strength - with the more potent ones being more expensive. That's the analog to "beer" in a consumer market that big business has a hand in.

The easiest way to process cannabis for sale on an industrial sale will be resin extracts. They can also then be modified afterwards so that strength can be calibrated and regulated. Think of it as a blended scotch with the "proof" of the weed smiled and dialed across some "strength" spectrum. That's the analog to hard liquor in the big business consumer market.

I also think there will always be a place for gourmet varietals of bud & hash, like wine, and that some of it will be imported. The biggest reason cannabis is illegal in other places is often Uncle Sam's influence. W/O that, producers from many parts of the world will be able to put their product into the world market.
I would agree that there will always be a place for gourmet cannabis, but its role will be small in the grand scheme in a regularized consumer market place. Gourmet whole bud, sold by weight in the package is the craft beer / winery appellation approach to cannabis. Bud sold on the scale is the Farmer's Market approach to a consumer product like cannabis.

I would expect a consumer market to be dominated by pre-rolled packaged joints and carefully predictable and reliably prepared and adulterated resin extracts. Johnny Walker Red, Black, Green and Blue, as it were.

It's just easier for industrial scale processing of cannabis to go in that direction.
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
I sadly have to disagree here. I fully appreciate the potency argument and that one, harkening back to beer, is correct as far as it goes. The same market returned post-Volkstead Act for the reasons you describe. Plus, people like beer. It's been around for a VERY long time. Beer may be many things - but a FAD is not one of them.

But I think the closest thing to beer is a delivery via pre-rolled cigarettes of a listed strength - with the more potent ones being more expensive. That's the analog to "beer" in a consumer market that big business has a hand in.

The easiest way to process cannabis for sale on an industrial sale will be resin extracts. They can also then be modified afterwards so that strength can be calibrated and regulated. Think of it as a blended scotch with the "proof" of the weed smiled and dialed across some "strength" spectrum. That's the analog to hard liquor in the big business consumer market.

I would agree that there will always be a place for gourmet cannabis, but its role will be small in the grand scheme in a regularized consumer market place. Gourmet whole bud, sold by weight in the package is the craft beer / winery appellation approach to cannabis. Bud sold on the scale is the Farmer's Market approach to a consumer product like cannabis.

I would expect a consumer market to be dominated by pre-rolled packaged joints and carefully predictable and reliably prepared and adulterated resin extracts. Johnny Walker Red, Black, Green and Blue, as it were.

It's just easier for industrial scale processing of cannabis to go in that direction.

I def get the idea of pre-rolled cigarettes, although I'm not so sure about the price differential wrt potency. Tobacco cigs of varying potency are all the same price, for example. Nor does potency translate into price wrt wine or spirits.

In a legal discriminating consumer market, what does translate into price is taste. It's the difference between cheap rotgut & 20 year old Scotch, between cheap pipe tobacco & connoisseur grades of the stuff, between Old Milwaukee & St Pauli Girl Dark.

With cannabis, the opportunity exists for even greater discrimination based on the quality of the high, the difference achieved through the entourage effect of highly complex cannabinoid chemistry. Pot isn't just pot. The range of effect from samples of basically the same potency is remarkable, and exploitable for commercial purposes.

Resin extract is a term that covers a lot of territory. I don't think it'll necessarily be chemical. It can easily be mechanical screening machinery, as well. Producers with hundreds of acres of production don't need to wring out the last bit of psychoactive material in a process that may not yield a desirable taste or overall effect, and consumers may well show preference for more "natural" products.

Interesting times, that's for sure.
 

gallito

Member
I would think mass produced packs of pre-rolled joints would go stale and loose potency. It's kinda scary to think what chemicals would be added to preserve "freshness."

Descriminating smokers will demand better. IMO there will be a large market for "gourmet" buds. Especially with the growing popularity of vapes.

There will always be hash, as is traditional and proper. Unfortunately, there will always be those clowns that will blow themselves up trying to push the envelope on potency.
 

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
I would think mass produced packs of pre-rolled joints would go stale and loose potency. It's kinda scary to think what chemicals would be added to preserve "freshness."

Descriminating smokers will demand better. IMO there will be a large market for "gourmet" buds. Especially with the growing popularity of vapes.

There will always be hash, as is traditional and proper. Unfortunately, there will always be those clowns that will blow themselves up trying to push the envelope on potency.

I think it'll follow the model of tobacco wrt freshness. Few people realize that cartons of cigarettes are dated, and that distributors routinely rotate stock, collect & dispose of old merchandise at their authorized retailers. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll find fresh packs of slow moving brands at the Bodega, but you will at higher volume retailers.
 

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