Leaf Damage - No Clue

[mayan]

Hey all...it's been years since I've been here. I've been growing indoors for several years and have never seen this type of damage. I grow in coco coir, using Botanicare Grow and Veg. I use Smart Pots. While I have had occasional Cal/Mag issues with coir, my grows have been very dialed-in without much difficulty in terms of either pests or disease. Until last grow, when another plant started showing very similar symptoms, irregular brown patches that ultimately leave dead spots if they go unintended - meaning if I don't pull 'em.

This plant was put into 12/12 on 6/1. She was not the healthiest through veg and did have some Cal/Mag issues although she was looking much better. Then (like the plant from last time) she started showing these symptoms. The other plants from both this grow and last grow seemed to be unaffected. I can't say that -at least at this point- that whatever is going on has affected overall growth of the plant - at least on the surface. I don't see evidence of bugs. At this point, most of her leaves are still looking good but I'm concerned that the damage seems to happen quickly and suddenly.

If this is nutritional, I can't figure out what's causing the issue -and as I said the other plants are doing very well. OTOH, if it's fungal, I don't understand why the other plants similarly aren't affected. In my little brain, this sorta kinda leaves me with some kind of root damage or disease. BUT...truly, I don't have a clue and that's why I'm posting here.

Any thoughts? Questions? Since she's just beginning to get on with the flowering cycle but hasn't really started, I'd consider any number of different treatments if it is -indeed- a systemic issue.

Thanks for your help, thoughts, questions, experiences, opinions, etc. etc. etc.

 

[who dat is]

My off the cuff comment would be that it could be a Phosphorous deficiency but hopefully somebody with more experience with coco can chime in

 

[skirbydog]

Hey Mayan and good post!
Your leaf tips on this one are burnt so I thinks it doesn't like the same strength of nutes as the other plants in your grow. You may have spilt some nutes on them to cause the browning on the leaf. Even though they might be same strain, like your kids, they are all different, with different needs.
Hope I helped a bit

 

[mayan]

Thanks, Who_dat_is - Phosphorous...interesting. These symptoms did start right after the beginning of the 12/12 phase. APpreciated.

Thanks Skirbydog - interesting. This doesn't look like nute burn to me - more like the tips got hit with whatever was also happening in the middle. But you might be right - I realize how very little I really know. Thanks for your thoughts!!

Other thoughts!?!

 

[who dat is]

Did it start lower down on the plant and start moving up or did it start up top on the plant?

 

[mayan]

Good question...I can't say that there's a discernible pattern...if there is one, it may be more on the new leaves of smaller shoots/branches. Not as much, I would say, on the larger fans - although they don't look vibrantly green, they are green.

 

[who dat is]

The only other thing I could think of is a pH issue but that is a total shot in the dark. Apologies but I'm not well versed at all with pH or growing in coco.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Looks like plain ol nute burn to me.

 

[the gnome]

If this is nutritional, I can't figure out what's causing the issue -and as I said the other plants are doing very well. OTOH, if it's fungal, I don't understand why the other plants similarly aren't affected. In my little brain, this sorta kinda leaves me with some kind of root damage or disease. BUT...truly, I don't have a clue and that's why I'm posting here.

ive been dealing with leaf septoria since last year.
your leaves look a lot like mine.
there's a bacterial and a fungal L. Sep.

it tends to affect lower leaves 1st.
if it is LS the other plants will soon have it.

Ive used actinovate and E 20 but It's not getting rid of it completely.
so i'm thinking it's bacterial
a good copper based anti fungal may be the way to go.
I'm going to order up Bio Works--> Cease
it's omri listed and is anti-bacterial-fungal

I hope it is a def and not LS mayan
it's a pita to deal with, the only up side is it's not causing any major probs to the plants.

culling the affected leaves as soon as you see symptoms and keeping all leaf matter picked up goes a long ways to controlling LS.
other symptoms Ive seen can be twisty leaves

 

[mayan]

Thanks, The Gnome...that is actually what I've been gnawing on...something skeevy like that. I hope it's nutritional but I don't like the speed with which it shows up. Fortunately all the plants -save one are just beginning to flower. I have read that it's very rare to see septoria during inside grows. Don't know if it's true or not. But I'm leaning in this direction - or some other infection.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Happens quickly... More supporting evidence for burn. I know you don't think so but I've burned plenty of plants in my day and a mild burn looks just like that. Case closed imo it's that obvious.

Recently burned some blueberry plants, shoulda taken pics to show. All other plants were fine, same situation as you. I cut the feed in half for the bb plants and voila problem solved.

I'll leave it alone, not gonna beat a dead horse. Try cutting your feed for that plant, not gonna hurt anything. Good luck.

 

[mayan]

I'll certainly consider what you are saying, Scrappy-doo, as I'm totally at sea when it comes to diagnosing ills. Will give it less over the next few days before trying actinovate or whatever.

 

[Vanilla Phoenix]

I thought nute burn as soon as I saw your pics too. The way the spots almost have a metallic look to em pretty much says burn. Maybe a good 1/4 strength flush couldn't hurt?

 

[mayan]

Thanks, Vanilla Phoenix...I will give that a try. I much prefer to exclude this as a cause than to start drenching and spraying, etc. My confusion comes from having typically seen burn start at the tips and then incrementally work inwards...Haven't seen this manifestation before. Will N burn differently than P, etc.?

 

[mjlifestyle]

I know it's not a poll, but I vote for P deficiency. The leafs have an intense darkish green and the blotches are irregular and big. A nute burn would have manifested itself in a more regular pattern, wouldn't it? Like leaf tips burned all over the plant, with yellowing/browning that progresses towards the base of the leafs.

Here's the progression of a P def leaf - http://www.growweedeasy.com/sites/growweedeasy.com/files/stages-of-phosphorus-deficiency.jpg Check it out and see if it resembles the late life of your leafs.

The leaf close-ups are good, but could you show a couple of shots of the whole plant? Is this plant smaller than your other plants? Because P def is made worse by underdeveloped roots, so maybe your other plants handle it better.

 

[Rory Borealis]

Thanks, The Gnome...that is actually what I've been gnawing on...something skeevy like that. I hope it's nutritional but I don't like the speed with which it shows up. Fortunately all the plants -save one are just beginning to flower. I have read that it's very rare to see septoria during inside grows. Don't know if it's true or not. But I'm leaning in this direction - or some other infection.

Bacterial. Spray them with solution of heavily diluted cow's milk(skim or regular doesn't matter). That usually help to provide the positive bacterial culture to help the plant fight back-also making the cell walls more rigid.

 

[the gnome]

Thanks, The Gnome...that is actually what I've been gnawing on...something skeevy like that. I hope it's nutritional but I don't like the speed with which it shows up. Fortunately all the plants -save one are just beginning to flower. I have read that it's very rare to see septoria during inside grows. Don't know if it's true or not. But I'm leaning in this direction - or some other infection.

btw, when i said i think it's bacterial,
I meant the septoria, it comes in both flavors....

I got mine from leaving a plant outside for week or so
and taking cuts from it.
a phos. def. looks very similar and i thought thats what i had at first.
and it may well be, lots easier to fix.

 

[mayan]

Hey, mjlifestyle...Good questions...Actually, the plant is growing vociferously (placed into 12/12 on 6/1) and shows no untoward dwarfing...aside from a leaf going supernova with brown blotching, she seems to be entirely appropriate. That said, maybe I hit her with a P/K boost too early...it was VERY moderate amount but hey!

Rory Borealis...I did use a bacterial inoculant a day or two ago...not sure if it made any difference or even whether it was the "best" inoculant but it was the one I have on hand. I have also been feeding it mychorrhizae.

So it looks like there are some voices for burn and some voices for bacterial fungal infection (or something). This plant is in a two gallon Smart Pot - I typically feed it every day but I sense that I could cut back to every other day. Perhaps it just doesn't need to get nutes added to the coir on a daily basis?!? OTOH, perhaps the nutrition is just fine...it's just has a fungal issue. Sheeesh!!! Where's my botany degree?!?

 

[skirbydog]

Theres the prob!
feed weekly with plain water mid-week. Nutes on Sat/Sun and plain water on wed.

 

[mayan]

Thanks, skirbydog...I have actually begun to cut back to every other day with all my 5 gallon. Although the others are not showing signs of burn at this point. Just don't think they need it. (I actually screwed up...the problematic plant wasn't transferred yet - she's still in a two gallon. I have since corrected the post.) I very much like working with coir - at the same time it's not terribly forgiving. It seems to require a shit ton of cal/mag and can also fuck up a plant when dry. I wonder whether the cal/mag locks out the P or K at times.

I'm leaning away from Septoria diagnosis - although what do I know? Apparently, Septoria initially presents with "circular" yellow spots around the infected area...the leaves don't seem to have it. Whether a symptom like this is a burn from too much nutes or a deficiency of P, exceeds my scope. Maybe they are the same thing - an overbalance causing an underbalance? I try to be pretty moderate with my nutes but I'm leaning toward the lack-of-balance nutritionally - at least for this particular plant.

BTW...everyone's thoughts and perceptions are very appreciated!! Learning and re-thinking!!!!