Is this soil mix too strong? Please help.

[sproutco]

I have no idea about rates for organic amendments. I would try to figure everything out with a gram scale and ppms. I use inorganic ferts. Does this seem like alot of phosphorus or nitrogen? I think it is causing copper deficency.

Per cubic foot of peatmoss and perlite:
1 cup bone meal
1/2 cup blood meal
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup dolomite lime
1/2 cup 5-3-3 all purpose organic fert w/ micros

5-1-1 fish ferts were added in the water

Ph ended high at over 6.5 to 7 with this much lime. Normal range in soilless mix is 5.6 to 6.2 Even in soil, higher than 6.5 is probably not good.

Thanks for any help in me understanding organics a little better.

Click on it to enlarge

 

[vonforne]

Blood meal is about 12 to 13 % nitrogen. With the other admendments that would give you about 23% nitrogen in that mix. What ratio is your bone meal...like 4-12-1? that would add another 4% nitrogen. 1 cup bone meal , Same amount all the way through the grow? And I like to add some kind of compost to off set my adding to much of something like N admendments. My ph rides at 7 with my water adjusted at 6.0. No problems. The kelp meal is 0-0-1 right? your minerals are supplied there. And I'm sure Sproutco uses LK and molasses. Right? It supplies iron,mg,ca, and carbohydrates and not to forget sugar. LK has all kinds of good things in it. I would say a tad too much N. With all the combinations there the numbers add up to a total % of about 27. 27% of you admendments are N. I would go with a little less N but the problem looks to be Phos. I would guess by the pictures you posted that it is a Phos. burn. It has the same look as a mineral deffiency. Tips curled up and dead matter on the leaves.
I don't like bone meal. Its a processed animal by-product. I like to use 2 different guanos for phos. one kind in veg and one in bloom. 1 soupspoon level per gallon maybe a little less. you can always top dress or tea feed.

How much longer do the plants have? Phos is hard to flush out once it is in there. In organics the admendments cannot be removed and it is hard to fluch them out. So, I guess what I'm saying is that less is better. And if I see something lacking I tea it in or top dress.

Oh and another thing.........you ask a question Sprout? Why are you making the transisition to organics? I'm working on a soil mixing and soil admendments thread. I was going to go step by step. I just have to get my pics in order and finish typing this weekend. I work with real basic things and avoid animal by-products. I hope I have given you some useful info you can work with. Maybe pay you back for a little of the help you have given me.

 

[sproutco]

These aren't my ugly plants. Sproutco plants look good with few imperfections. Almost unreal because of the deep green color the sulfuric acid I use gives. I just think the hot soil mix and fish ferts was too much for this plant. Thanks for any help you give.

 

[Guest]

Hey sproutco, why don't you throw up a few pics of your perfect cannabis plants (that you grew) for us. Oh that's right you haven't grown cannabis since the eighties (never grew it). It's funny you're bashing my ugly plant an hour after I told you you were wrong w/ your diagnosis. I guess you don't like hearing that as much as you get your ass kissed around here by all your other handles.

 

[sproutco]

Nobody is bashing your ugly plants. We are trying to figure out what is wrong with them. This seemed like a good place to post this so other organic growers that know fert rates can give a hand.

 

[Guest]

I don't know ferts per say , but I wanted to relate to you my experience with soil ammendments. When I first started growing I tried to Make my own soil mixes , I researched everthing on O.G. ,went out and bought everything I needed and started.
I tried this out for a year and never quite could get it dialed in. I always seemed to have problems with my plants when grown in my own soil recipes , I followed peoples recipes to the tee and still I just couldn't seem to keep the plants happy. Of course I probably was doing something incorrect , but I just couldn't seem to figure it out. So now I have become a cheater and I use Fox Farm Soil and truthfully I have been very happy and no longer have sickly looking plants like before. In fact the quality of the end product is 100 times better than before.This probably wasn't any help ,but you are using all the same addatives I used to, and it just seemed like a similar situation. Good luck Sproutco.

I had to add: The other thing I need to relate is that for the year I tried doing my own soil recipes all the soils I bought were all Peat based soils which i found to be very acidic and a magnet for fungus gnats. Fox Farm soils are real dirt and since I started using ocean forest I never see fungus gnats anymore and (real)soil is supposed to to be a great Ph buffer. Don't mean to keep singing praises to Fox Farm products ..but...I have had very good experiences with them and never have the amount of problems I used to.
Do a comparison grow , you might be suprised.

 

[OHenry]

Instead of F'ing with all those ammendments you should switch to Earth Juice Grow/Bloom. Very simple, easy to flush, fully organic. JMO. Seems like making your own soil mixes can leave you burnt.

Use ProMix HP soil and Feed as directed. Simple enough.

Good luck.

 

[Suby]

EDIT= I put my nose where it doesn't belong...

Suby

On a side note i dunno what's wrong with those but it looks like toxicity and soil lockout, they look overfed and deficient at the same time that's usually lockout.

 

[Suby]

Whitchking FF products are great but they are not 100% organic, organics are harder to master but it's alot like the difference between buying fish or learning to fish, once you know how to recognize plant def's before they go to far then it's easy, following a recipe without knowing the why's and how's is a recipe for disaster...

PS dolomite lime at 2tbs per gallon is the foundation of offsetting peat acidity.

 

[stretchpuppy]

Sproutco is a good member of these boards and I am sure he has better things to do with his time than to start a thread to mock your plants.

I'd say posting crappy flower pics of someone elses flowers without their permission or knowledge, who you're squabbling with previously, is awfully condescending, as well as mockable. With comments like "These aren't my ugly plants. Sproutco plants look good with few imperfections."

Peas and carrots,

[edit: are those even your plants and soil mix sproutco, or are you sticking it so CH? We should move this to the teeny booper thread instead of Organic Soil.]

 

[vonforne]

As Suby stated and I second, Sproutco is a respected member of our boards here whether he currently grows or not. He has a wealth of knowledge to pass on. And he did admit that he is not an "organic" grower and ask the help of those who are. I being the first. He did not tell anyone whos plants they were he was just trying to get an answer for their problems. he was not "slinging mud" in any ones direction. he just ask for some help so he could pass on the correct answers where they were needed. And I agree, those are some ugly plants. We have all had ugly plants at one time or another.

CH, I respect your posts and knowledge. If you had a problem and it was organic in nature, why didn't you bring it here in the first place. We would have been glad to help and will still be glad to help in any way. You are a part of our community also, as much as Sproutco is.

SP, I personally don't think your comment was needed. Just let these two sort it out. OK? It was between those two. Period.


CH, as I told Sproutco last evening, I think it is a Hot mix and the portions are wrong. Which over time has caused a nute lock out. The PH dropped during flowering causing this. A low PH will lock out everything but iron, Magnese, baron and copper. That is why I did not think that it was copper when Sproutco ask the question. There is NO lime in your mix. That spells trouble in many ways. If you would like some help, just ask thats why we are all here. And Sproutco did know where to take the problem. Only thing I might fault him for was not to ask first but as I said he didn't mention any names, just ask for help to solve YOUR problem.

PS. And as far as anyone else is concerned Sproutco has helped us all here in one way or another. Stay off his ass around here!

Von

 

[vonforne]

And here in Organic Soil we pride ourselves on our ability to "Get along" and respect one anothers views.


Spoutco, you did the right thing by trying to help but as the saying goes "you cannot help the un-willing" Nice thought though.

And no one kisses Sproutco ass. He has earned the respect from us over time.

 

[Guest]

Like I told sproutco about 3 f'n times I've used those amendments at those levels MANY times before, my problem was soil compaction and not a fert problem, I tried to get away with too little perlite in the mix because I was using smaller pots for 2 seeded LS. The rest of my plants are in the same mix of ferts with more perlite and they are doing very well, thats wrer I was stumpedand that's what the problem is.

vonforne,
you have no idea the crap sproutco said and deleted in my thread you just blindly believe he's in the right.
I was very willing to be helped until someone comes along with 0 practical knowlege telling me that I don't know wtf I'm doing, that tends to get on my nerves. When someone is giving advice they need to listen to the person with the problem, that's what I do and thats not what sproutco does, he has stock textbook answers for everything with no regard for growers experience. If that gets your respect he can have it all. Yes my mixes always have dolomite lime in them.

Here's a few LS girls I've grown in that mix with added perlite. I think it worked pretty well.

Peace
CH

 

[vonforne]

CH, did you use small perlite or large? I have had compaction problems with the small before.
And I do not blindly believe anyone. I weigh all of the facts. I have went back and re-read the posts. As I said before...it is between you two to sort out. And there is a place for text book answers. just as there is a place for us all and what we have to contribute.

And I did not doubt you knowledge as a experienced grower. As I stated before I respect your posts and your knowledge.

Von

PS nice plants. I wanted to grow the LS but never got any seeds. Oh well, maybe the next great one I will get.

 

[Guest]

If the plants in those pics were grown in the same soil mix you're using now, that may offer a few clues for you. In those old pics, see how your fan leaves are curling under? (Not the drooping, which looks like it was caused by the medium drying out, but the slight curling under of the leaves...)

That curling can be caused by any of the following (in order of likelihood):

Too much N

pH too high

Salts build-up

Root damage

Fungus

If your roots are healthy then I would first suspect your N levels, then high pH, then salts.

N levels: Blood meal is a turbo-powered N source and it's very easy to overdo it. 1/2 cup per 6 gallons may be a tad high, depending on the other components in the mix. Seeing that much Blood meal combined with the kelp meal sends a red flag up for me, as the kelp will really get that Blood meal cooking.

Then adding fish emulsion on top of it all... high N levels could be contributing to your problems, IMO.

pH: Running pH at 6.5-7 is a tad high. If a person is 100% certain they're hitting that range and NOT going over, you're probably fine depending on strain, but factor in perhaps a pH meter or strips that aren't giving 100% accurate readings and this becomes a real suspect.

Salts: The symptoms shown in your photo (the newest photo) scream salts build-up to me personally, but I don't know enough about the salts present in organic ferts to guess how that could be related to your particular soil mix.

The others with more organic knowledge may be able to help here.

Root damage and fungus are possibilities but IMO are not likely culprits. If you're curious about it, pop the plant out of its pot gently and have a look.

If it were me, I'd be certain to get the perlite levels up next time, consider cutting the Blood Meal level down and instead relying on a longer-term N source that isn't so hot (or feeding lightly with N guano teas or Fish Emulsion along the way as needed), and try to get the pH down to 6.1-6.6, that kinda range.

Hope that helps some.

.canine.

 

[Guest]

^^^^Thanks for the help that pic in my last post was about 2 days before I chopped it. The leaf curl was showing at least 8 days before that. The LS weren't fed the 5-1-1 fish emulsion only light teas. I had a haze hybrid plant that I gave the 5-1-1 to. The biggest problem I had was with soil compaction without enough perlite, it took me an hour to get 2 gals through a 3 gal pot when I tried to flush it. This tells me there wasn't enough drainage in the mix, which will lead to a crap load of probs.

I will take your advice and go easier on the N among a few other things.

Thanks again

 

[Guest]

^^^^Thanks for the help that pic in my last post was about 2 days before I chopped it. The leaf curl was showing at least 8 days before that.

In that pic, if you look at the younger plant next to the finishing plant, its leaves are also curling under. When a plant is really rocking and loving it's environment, you'll see the opposite of that happen- the leaves will be literally reaching for the light, pointing upward.

That can be tricky to achieve, but the leaves curling under like that is definitely a sign that the plants not feeling so good.

You'll nail it next time. Sounds like you've nailed it before.

.c.