Is this normal?

[Grassimo]

Hey guys, was just curious if I was having light problems.

My 400w MH seems like its wayyy hotter than my 1000w HPS.

BUT, they've both been connected to a 1000w ballast.

Is the 400w bulb getting more power from the ballast causing it to be hotter than a 1000w?

Cause i put my hand under my 1000w HPS and it doesnt feel as hot.

Thanks

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Your post reads as if you're connecting a 400w lamp to a 1000w ballast. I'm reading it incorrectly, yes? A 1000w ballast will run the connected lamp at 1000w, or at least attempt to do so.

 

[944s2]

hey grassimo,,,
side with caution and pull that hot bulb asap,,,,,s2

 

[Grassimo]

Your post reads as if you're connecting a 400w lamp to a 1000w ballast. I'm reading it incorrectly, yes? A 1000w ballast will run the connected lamp at 1000w, or at least attempt to do so.

Ya thats correct, I had no idea there were different ballasts for each bulb wattage.

I was plugging a 400w into my 1000w ballast, then switched to 1000w bulb in the same 1000w ballast.

Is it normal that the 400w was hotter than the 1000w (with my mistake applying)? Due to getting too much power?

hey grassimo,,,
side with caution and pull that hot bulb asap,,,,,s2

The 400w is not plugged anymore. Now I have the 1000w plugged in which seems less hot than the 400w.

I assume its because I had an over powered ballast?

--------------------------------------

Everything seems fine other than that. I just figured that a 1000w bulb would be hotter than a 400w, but maybe not a 400w in 1000w ballast I guess haha

And thanks for helping guys

 

[brown_thumb]

I don't understand. Unless the voltage is different the bulb is only going to draw as much as it wants. I know nothing about CMH/LPS ballasts but if they work similarly to current draw from a standard wall socket then I'd think it shouldn't be a problem using a lower wattage bulb than a ballast is designed for unless there's an ignition, frequency or some other mismatch.

What I'm trying to say is, one can plug a 5 watt incandescent light bulb into a socket and circuit designed to handle up to 1000 watts. That 1000 watt (capable) circuit won't try to force 1000 watts into a 5 watt light bulb. The bulb is only going to draw 5 watts.

There must be other factors of which I'm not aware though!!

 

[troutman]

The bulb was probably going to burn out real fast.

Only use the proper wattage bulbs.

 

[queequeg152]

I don't understand. Unless the voltage is different the bulb is only going to draw as much as it wants. I know nothing about CMH/LPS ballasts but if they work similarly to current draw from a standard wall socket then I'd think it shouldn't be a problem using a lower wattage bulb than a ballast is designed for unless there's an ignition, frequency or some other mismatch.

What I'm trying to say is, one can plug a 5 watt incandescent light bulb into a socket and circuit designed to handle up to 1000 watts. That 1000 watt (capable) circuit won't try to force 1000 watts into a 5 watt light bulb. The bulb is only going to draw 5 watts.

There must be other factors of which I'm not aware though!!

yea that is the case with a standard resistive load like an incandescent bulb. basically... the smaller wattage bulbs have the type of filament but at a smaller wire gauge.... so a smaller gauge means even more resistance to the flow of electrons, which translates to tiny wattages. but since the fillaments glow at the same same temperature more or less... you get roughly the same color light just less of it.

but a florescent or HID light is way different. they are kinda like a type of cathode tube(hot cathode), but most work well at very high temps and pressures. each bulb has its own starting power requirements and running power requirements. a very large bulb will need a bigger burp of current at high voltage to heat the cold bulbs electrodes to allow ions to reach the other end of the bulb or HID vial and strike the arc.

when you are running a 400w on a 1000w ballast... that ballast has no way to know that its trying to start and run a smaller 400w bulb so it will feed the smaller bulb way more starting current... same goes with the running current. keep in mind these hot hot hot gasses have like almost 0 resistance when they are running so the bulb itself cannot self limit how much current it will draw like a tiny incandescent with a huge ohm figure across its fillament.

 

[brown_thumb]

yea that is the case with a standard resistive load like an incandescent bulb. basically... the smaller wattage bulbs have the type of filament but at a smaller wire gauge.... so a smaller gauge means even more resistance to the flow of electrons, which translates to tiny wattages. but since the fillaments glow at the same same temperature more or less... you get roughly the same color light just less of it.

but a florescent or HID light is way different. they are kinda like a type of cathode tube(hot cathode), but most work well at very high temps and pressures. each bulb has its own starting power requirements and running power requirements. a very large bulb will need a bigger burp of current at high voltage to heat the cold bulbs electrodes to allow ions to reach the other end of the bulb or HID vial and strike the arc.

when you are running a 400w on a 1000w ballast... that ballast has no way to know that its trying to start and run a smaller 400w bulb so it will feed the smaller bulb way more starting current... same goes with the running current. keep in mind these hot hot hot gasses have like almost 0 resistance when they are running so the bulb itself cannot self limit how much current it will draw like a tiny incandescent with a huge ohm figure across its fillament.

Ahh... okay, so there's a difference between a resistive load and that which drives a gas to glow?

 

[queequeg152]

basically yea.

i mean if anything a ballast is an inductive load... but if you look just at the arc tube itself its not really limited by resistance like an incandescent is because when it running the resistance should be quite low, and the hotter it gets the lower the resistance should be.

just pull up an ohms law calculator and see how the power figures change as you drop resistance.

but yea, my overall point was/is that a ballast wired to run a 1000w bulb well will probably over drive and probably break a 400w bulb because its setup to provide more current and probably higher voltages(at least on startup) to the arc tube.

i suppose its possible that some of the smarter digital ballasts can detect this condition some how and react appropriately? i dont really know.

thankfully though these bulbs generally fail in a safe fashion. even if the tube explodes, its usually contained mostly inside the outer envelope... and even if the outer envelope shatters, its usually removed enough kinetic energy from the shards to make the flying debris less likely to cause damage.

 

[Grassimo]

basically yea.

i mean if anything a ballast is an inductive load... but if you look just at the arc tube itself its not really limited by resistance like an incandescent is because when it running the resistance should be quite low, and the hotter it gets the lower the resistance should be.

just pull up an ohms law calculator and see how the power figures change as you drop resistance.

but yea, my overall point was/is that a ballast wired to run a 1000w bulb well will probably over drive and probably break a 400w bulb because its setup to provide more current and probably higher voltages(at least on startup) to the arc tube.

i suppose its possible that some of the smarter digital ballasts can detect this condition some how and react appropriately? i dont really know.

thankfully though these bulbs generally fail in a safe fashion. even if the tube explodes, its usually contained mostly inside the outer envelope... and even if the outer envelope shatters, its usually removed enough kinetic energy from the shards to make the flying debris less likely to cause damage.

Awesome thanks man, that answered my question haha, it was hotter cause I had the wrong ballast

 

[Can of Bliss]

To reiterate what people have said, and hopefully simplify for clarification:
A ballast has three functions; give correct voltage, start bulbs, and limit current

HID bulbs don't limit their own current. If your house was wired to the proper voltage for a MH or HPS and you screwed one in to a normal light socket (assuming it started) it would pull current until it tripped the breaker or the bulb burnt itself up.

Basically, the point of a ballast is that it is properly sized for the bulb you are using.

Bulbs can be overdriven, i.e. given more current than they are rated for. This is possible with some digital ballasts with a "boost" setting. Generally you don't want to do that by more that about 10% rated, and it's bad for bulbs, so people reserve that for old bulbs they are trying to get a little more life out of.

So for your situation. Stop doing that right away. It is dangerous (and much more so with MH than HPS). And buy a second smaller ballast, or one with switchable wattage. I recently bought a Xtrasun ballast that switches between 250/400/600/600"boost" it was about $150 shipped. I haven't used it long enough that I would recommend it, but I like the switching feature. They make another one that'll do 400 to 1k too.

 

[Grassimo]

To reiterate what people have said, and hopefully simplify for clarification:
A ballast has three functions; give correct voltage, start bulbs, and limit current

HID bulbs don't limit their own current. If your house was wired to the proper voltage for a MH or HPS and you screwed one in to a normal light socket (assuming it started) it would pull current until it tripped the breaker or the bulb burnt itself up.

Basically, the point of a ballast is that it is properly sized for the bulb you are using.

Bulbs can be overdriven, i.e. given more current than they are rated for. This is possible with some digital ballasts with a "boost" setting. Generally you don't want to do that by more that about 10% rated, and it's bad for bulbs, so people reserve that for old bulbs they are trying to get a little more life out of.

So for your situation. Stop doing that right away. It is dangerous (and much more so with MH than HPS). And buy a second smaller ballast, or one with switchable wattage. I recently bought a Xtrasun ballast that switches between 250/400/600/600"boost" it was about $150 shipped. I haven't used it long enough that I would recommend it, but I like the switching feature. They make another one that'll do 400 to 1k too.

Haha yeah I was told from a few people it was bad. I just have OCD and wanted to be 100% my 1000w was working correctly, and that the 400w was over working.

Ive corrected the mistakes thanks

 

[brown_thumb]

queequeg152 and Can of Bliss,

Excellent explanations. Thank you. I never would have tried a lower wattage bulb than a ballast is designed for without investigating first and you guys explained very well why it's a bad idea. Now that I think about it, their function is why they're called 'ballasts' and not 'power supplies'.

 

[Loc Dog]

I am not an electrical expert like queegqueg152, but think you probably ruined the 400 watt bulb. Most people throw out HID bulbs after 2 grows, because the light output goes way down. Overheating the crap out of the bulb probably will have an adverse effect on its output and possibly spectrum.

 

[Grassimo]

I am not an electrical expert like queegqueg152, but think you probably ruined the 400 watt bulb. Most people throw out HID bulbs after 2 grows, because the light output goes way down. Overheating the crap out of the bulb probably will have an adverse effect on its output and possibly spectrum.

I only used for about 2 weeks though, it was brand new, it's still bad?

Either way I decided to buy a 1000w mh and just switch it on the ballast instead lol

 

[Loc Dog]

I only used for about 2 weeks though, it was brand new, it's still bad?

Either way I decided to buy a 1000w mh and just switch it on the ballast instead lol

Wait for Queeg to chime in. I would think you ruined bulb by running 2.5 times as much wattage through it.

 

[queequeg152]

i am NOT an electrical expert lol... i am flattered that you think so... but its not the case.
i knew just enough about electricity to sneak through physics 3 with a C, and do rudementary demand calculations for my job but and thats about it.

is the bulb damaged? imo probably not, but it would depend on how long it was over driven like that.

is it worse for wear? most definatly. its probably severly shortened its life, but i would at least keep it for a backup bulb or something like that.
just check the arc tube... it should have a glaze of halide salts inside, and no or very little brown or black scorching.

i dont think its going to pop or anything dramatic like that if that is what worries you.
even if it does pop, like i said these things tend to fail safely, especially the name brand bulbs.

 

[Grassimo]

i am NOT an electrical expert lol... i am flattered that you think so... but its not the case.
i knew just enough about electricity to sneak through physics 3 with a C, and do rudementary demand calculations for my job but and thats about it.

is the bulb damaged? imo probably not, but it would depend on how long it was over driven like that.

is it worse for wear? most definatly. its probably severly shortened its life, but i would at least keep it for a backup bulb or something like that.
just check the arc tube... it should have a glaze of halide salts inside, and no or very little brown or black scorching.

i dont think its going to pop or anything dramatic like that if that is what worries you.
even if it does pop, like i said these things tend to fail safely, especially the name brand bulbs.

I only used it for 2 weeks but either way ill be changing the ight to 1000w

rather just do it the right way to be safe haha ^^ thanks for all your help guys

 

[Snook]

and they do make dimmable ballasts that let you dial down a 1K bulb from 1K to 600w or 400w. magic? dono.

 

[Floridian]

That's a good question for us fogies Snook.I know dimmers use ballasts that work that way