Is STS Pollen Genetically the Same as Hermie-Stress Pollen?

[Douglas.Curtis]

Same cutting, two stressor influences. One is STS and the other is low pH hermie reaction. Are the two pollen sources genetically the same?

Do epigenetics come into play during pollen formation?

 

[MJPassion]

From all that I’ve read,
Reversing a plant that already carries genetic markers for hermaphroditism will result in like plants.

My understanding is that potential pollen donors need to be tested extensively previous to using the pollen they produce.

HOWEVER:
My experience with pollen flying from a Blue Moonshine lady onto other ladies (from light contamination issues) shows variable results in the offspring. Some will herm while most will not.
Cherry Bomb gave me the opposite reaction with male/female mating. It was herm prone so I dropped that variety from my breeding list.

 

[Natural high]

Same cutting, two stressor influences. One is STS and the other is low pH hermie reaction. Are the two pollen sources genetically the same?

Do epigenetics come into play during pollen formation?

Yes they are exactly the same. Inheritable epigenetic change is a very rare occurrence and is extremely unlikely to be a factor in either case. The fact that the plant can be induced to herm via low ph means this tendancy will also be present in those seeds produced via STS.



.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i agree that they will be the same. What you won't know is how reluctant to stress-hermie the female is unless you have tested it for that. Willingness to stress-hermie is not a desirable trait.
, if you wanted to select a good female to reverse, you would stress test a number of them and discard any that easily stress hermied, selecting plants that were reluctant to stress hermie.

VG

 

[ahortator]

Same cutting, two stressor influences. One is STS and the other is low pH hermie reaction. Are the two pollen sources genetically the same?

Once you get pollen from a cutting the pollen is the same. Obviously as each grain of pollen produced by meiosis it is not the same

But I would try to avoid such low pH hermie prone clon for breeding. Unless it is a very valuable for you and rare or difficult to get strain.

 

[igrowone]

a question i've had in the back of my mind
i don't know the answer, and i understand the view that the pollen will be effectively the same
but until you do carefully controlled studies, you don't know for sure
i've had results like mjpassion, a natural hermie with varying offspring
and the ones that are stable appear to be rock stable

 

[Ibechillin]

Also on the subject some strains are immune to hermaphrodism, this is a conversation me and a friend had with Sam_Skunkman last June and July 2017:

I have found many female individuals that I could not reverse by stress, as well as a few that could not be reversed with STS. Why I do not know for sure.
No new news on tests for intersex be they stress induced or just intersex regardless of the environmental conditions. I am still hoping this will happen soon as the DNA tests for male seem to work fine but to assume all that are not male are female is a big problem when some of the "females" are intersexed and cause the same problems as a real male.

Who wants to have to examine all plants daily to assure the seeds started are true female and not just an intersexed female that DNA tests as a female but is not without problems.

Remember that when you DNA test males and then assume all the other plants are female that will include intersexed and monoecious, they test as Female even if they express more male flowers then female flowers.
-SamS

I have been concerned with the the amount of female pollen chucking going on in the last decade. Well not chucking that's a bit harsh; but prolific use of female pollen. We found out about colloidal and stress techniques in the UK in 1990. But the XX pollen was only used to preserve a female clone in seed form. Not for crosses. I had RKS (skunk#1) and had female seeds for years.
I grow elite clones for the masses. Most will easily throw a few anthers. They pollen stays "hard" for days and they can be easily plucked out.
So is that where we are? How has it become acceptable to have great weed with a few nanners to pluck every round? So someone gets a bagseed form my "gelato" and goes on to grow and clone that compromised genetic material !!
I personally love males. I have had resinous males. And males that stacked flowers like a female.
I get better hybrid vigor from XY pollen. How about you?

I feel you on the prolific use of female pollen and agree totally on only selfing a clone for preservation.

There are breeders like Mr.Nice that only make regular seeds.

The real question is though, after many generations of XX crosses has it been documented and proven the offspring will hermaphrodite indefinitely even in a no stress environment?

Is there any solid evidence of loss of vigor from XX seeds?

Over the last 7 years ive grown out ~30 bagseeds and they have all been female. Of those bagseeds i found 3 of the most vigourous growing plants i have come across.

All 30 of them were flowered and at some point all were stressed by something. Ph issues, reservoir water temp, was on 400ppm well water and getting lockout, heat waves.

Interestingly not one of the bagseed plants ever tryed to hermie, never produced nanners late in bloom, or had any seeds.

In terms of breeding im still skeptical to use femenized pollen, but i have had good experiences this far it seems...

There is no solid evidence of Loss of vigor etc. as far as I know.
And selfed females do not always herm although I have seen some bad ones.
From a Landrace point of view a group of isolated females could have survived for decades through self pollination/preservation for all we know. And as Sam said some strains can't be reveresed so there is the other end of the spectrum too.
Maybe I am just old school and hence have a low opinion of female seed breeding?
If I have an elite female I want to preserve I cross in something very phenotypically different that I still consider good quality. Then I make F2's to "fracture" the phenotypes. I usually get a male with strong mother traits at this point. Cross him back to mommy. With patience and a few crosses back to mommy we get very close to the original clone.
Then, if we can be bothered, line breed to stabilize. Now we have close to the original clone with a butt load of vigor.
But that is a two year deal...
I don't think there is a right and wrong perspective on XX pollen. And I am staying open minded.

Its surprising to realize some landrace strains literally could be derived from decades of hermanphrodism. Crazy to think its technically an evolutionary advantage in terms of survival in harsh environments Or maybe tropical sativa plants like Thai do it naturally not because of stress but to take advantage of the perfect growing environment? I didnt know some strains could not be reversed, that is vital information.

Theoretically in breeding plants with XX pollen if somewhere in the lineage of the plant(s) used is the trait immunity to reversing, some of the offspring could be immune to reversing as well.

This would most likely explain my luck with the ~30 bagseeds.

Are there different triggers for hermanphrodism in different landraces i wonder?

Like of all the landraces that can reverse, are some only prone to under certain conditions like drought or heat or just stress in general depending on thier home environment?

From my reading heat seems to be the main cause of selfing, but ive also seen torure chamber grows in hot closets of bagseeds that do just fine...a good friend of mine being one lol.

Selfing to S4 will cause inbreeding loss of vigor and many buried negative genes will be expressed, try for S5 or S6 and you are lucky to get functional pollen Dehiscence, I find sticky pollen that is viable but does not drop, so it is functionally sterile. You can use it with a q-tip if careful. I try to not make above S3's. It is hard to use STS to make all female copies of a female clone specially if a Poly-Multi-Hybrid, a selfed female clone of that type will segregate and act as an F2 population. So very hard to find one just like the clone mother.
-SamS

 

[Natural high]

If you wanted to select a good female to reverse, you would stress test a number of them and discard any that easily stress hermied, selecting plants that were reluctant to stress hermie.

VG

Good point but doesn't this apply to any plant you intend to breed with, feminized or regular? Feminized breeding is often singled out as the source of all intersex evil, but it is just as likely to happen with regular breeding if the parents aren't stress tested.

a question i've had in the back of my mind
i don't know the answer, and i understand the view that the pollen will be effectively the same
but until you do carefully controlled studies, you don't know for sure
i've had results like mjpassion, a natural hermie with varying offspring
and the ones that are stable appear to be rock stable

As Ahorator pointed out, no two pollen grains will be the same following meiosis. Each gamete only gets half of the parents DNA and this has been shuffled for a better word. Because of this, the resultant seeds can have a wide variability in regards to intersex potential - some may herm at the drop of a hat and others may be rock solid stable.

 

[igrowone]

As Ahorator pointed out, no two pollen grains will be the same following meiosis. Each gamete only gets half of the parents DNA and this has been shuffled for a better word. Because of this, the resultant seeds can have a wide variability in regards to intersex potential - some may herm at the drop of a hat and others may be rock solid stable.

agreed and understood
i'll put it this way, if there were careful controlled comparisons of STS versus other methods, i'd be curious what results were noted, if any
i doubt it's been done, and if it was probably would have been with hemp
but i wouldn't see the motivation for doing that with hemp

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Excellent contributions everyone, thank you.

Once you get pollen from a cutting the pollen is the same. Obviously as each grain of pollen produced by meiosis it is not the same

But I would try to avoid such low pH hermie prone clone for breeding. Unless it is a very valuable for you and rare or difficult to get strain.

Understood. The cut in question is the Canna-Tsu, 2:1'ish CBD:THC, with a neutral (no stone/high/inebriation) terpene profile. She's not very sensitive to light leaks, but low pH seems to trigger her every time.

The feminizing is the first step in finding non-hermie prone versions.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Good point but doesn't this apply to any plant you intend to breed with, feminized or regular? Feminized breeding is often singled out as the source of all intersex evil, but it is just as likely to happen with regular breeding if the parents aren't stress tested.
...

agreed, it's all about the selection, whether you are using fem or regular breeding tech.

VG

 

[MJPassion]

Excellent contributions everyone, thank you.


Understood. The cut in question is the Canna-Tsu, 2:1'ish CBD:THC, with a neutral (no stone/high/inebriation) terpene profile. She's not very sensitive to light leaks, but low pH seems to trigger her every time.

The feminizing is the first step in finding non-hermie prone versions.

Considering the comment regarding poly-multi-hybrids...
The need to sift through many many phenotypes to find what you desire, as well as being intersex free, could possibly take a lifetime.

If this a challenge you are willing to take, I believe you have the power & fortitude to make it happen!

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Considering the comment regarding poly-multi-hybrids...
The need to sift through many many phenotypes to find what you desire, as well as being intersex free, could possibly take a lifetime.

If this a challenge you are willing to take, I believe you have the power & fortitude to make it happen!

Thanks!

Whatever it takes to push more "Functional/Non-Inebriating" strains out to the public.