interesting article on silicon

[MileHighGuy]

Comfrey >> Silicic acid >> 40,000 ppm Edit: Source: http://www.herballegacy.com/ThesisChemical.html

Borage is about 1/2 that @ 22,000 ppm

Kelp Meal >> Silicic acid >> 27,500 ppm

 

[MileHighGuy]

potassium silicate, chelated with PEG400/Surfactant,
http://www.siliforce.com/pdf/7c/Bel...t foliaire du Si contre Mildio sur BLE GB.pdf
Plants treated with Kasil and Silamol through root applications had the highest levels of Si
deposition (Figure 1c and 1d). By contrast, foliar-treated plants accumulated very little Si. In
most cases, concentrations were
comparable to that of control plants with only a few spots appearing above the background level

gave a lower
disease control than Kasil and Silamol (Figure 2; Contrast B). Interestingly, Silamol, a product
formulated for foliar


applications, also yielded excellent control of powdery mildew, comparable to that of Kasil, when
used as a soil drench at 1.7
mM Si

I appreciate the report that you posted.

Again.... There is no reason to use glycol.

1. The very report you linked says so several times.

In conclusion, this works presents the first comprehensive comparison of the efficacy of Si-based products at
controlling powdery mildew and stimulating growth on wheat plants under two different forms of application. Root
applications of potassium silicate at a concentration of 1.7 mM gave the best results in terms of Si absorption and disease
control regardless of the source

2. If the Glycol has zero effect - Why add it?

I add the Agsil16H during watering every time and have noticed much healthier plants.

Foliar feeding with Silica is not to promote further absorbtion by the plant but rather to emulsify Neem oil for Pest Management and to prevent Powdery Mildew along with the root applications.


This report proves..... along with many others that the APTUS fasilator is a huge $1 ML Ripoff and that you can easily get Silica into the plant by delivering potassium silicate to the rootzone where it will convert to silicic acid as long as you use the right amount. For instance Advanced Nutrients bottle is a ripoff.

Also, if you have Comfrey or Kelp you can make a Fermented Plant Extract or Botanical Tea..... or just work into the soil and let the micro life slowly take care of it.

In the meantime. Agsil16H for the win!

 

[dizzlekush]

Comfrey >> Silicic acid >> 40,000 ppm

Borage is about 1/2 that @ 22,000 ppm

Kelp Meal >> Silicic acid >> 27,500 ppm

That's literally impossible. That would make kelp meal at least ~0.8% Si by weight. (27,500ppm = 2.75% SiH4O4; SiH4O4 is ~29% Si, making 27,500ppm SiH4O4 = ~0.8% Si) Kelp meal often doesn't have that much N, let alone Si, let alone that much Si in the form of silicic acid. Kelp meal isn't a significant source of Si mate, Ascophyllum nodosum's potential uses are very well studied and documented and being a Si source isn't one of them. Id like to see one good reference to this claim.

Also worth noting in the study that shaggy posted is that the PEG did increase plant height without increasing wet or dry weight of the plants, implying that it increased cellular elongation/internodal stretch, which is usually considered a negative effect in cannabis cultivation.

 

[shaggyballs]

Also worth noting in the study that shaggy posted is that the PEG did increase plant height without increasing wet or dry weight of the plants, implying that it increased cellular elongation/internodal stretch, which is usually considered a negative effect in cannabis cultivation.

Thanks for setting me straight !! Gentleman

 

[MileHighGuy]

RE: Kelp

Dizzle! I must be mistaken then. I'll check my sources and see whats up.

 

[Neo 420]

General Properties (From North American Kelp Co)

The seaweed Ascophyllum nodosum is harvested, machine dried, and sized. It is dark green in color with a light salty flavor.



Particle Size

Standard: 14 mesh

Special Orders:

Chips: 8 to 10 mesh

Granular: 14 to 50 mesh

Powder: 50 mesh



Components (%)

Protein


5.7

Fat


2.6

Fiber


7.0

Moisture


10.7

Ash


15.4

Carbohydrates


58.6





Carbohydrates (%)

Alginic acid


26.7

Laminarin


9.3

Mannitol


4.2

Methylpentosans


7.0

Other sugars


11.4





Vitamins (mg/kg)

Ascorbic acid (C)


500 - 2000

Tocopherols (E)


150 - 300

Carotene (A)


30 - 60

Ba


15 - 50

Niacin


10 - 30

Vitamin K


10

Riboflavin


5 - 10

Ni


2 - 5

V


1.5 - 3

Thiamin


1 - 5

Folic acid


0.1 - 0.5

Folinic acid


0.1 - 0.5

Biotin


0.1 – 0.4

Vitamin B12


0.004





Amino Acids

(as gms of amino acid nitrogen / 100 gms of protein nitrogen)

Alanine


5.0

Arginine


11.8

Aspartic acid


8.7

Glutamic acid


5.3

Glycine


5.7

Leucine


8.7

Lysine


4.1

Serine


3.3

Threonine


2.7

Tyrosine


0.5

Valine + Methionine


14.0





Minerals and Elements (%)

Aluminum


.193

Antimony


.00014

Barium


.00128

Boron


.0194

Calcium


1.904

Chlorine


3.68

Cobalt


.00123

Copper


.00064

Fluorine


.03265

Germanium


.00001

Gold


.00001

Iodine


.0624

Iron


.08956

Lantanum


.00001

Lead


.00001

Lithium


.00001

Magnesium


.213

Manganese


.1235

Mercury


.00019

Molybdenum


.00159

Nickel


.0035

Nitrogen


.0624

Phosphorus


.211

Potassium


1.28

Rubidium


.00001

Selenium


.00004

Silicon


.1642

Sodium


4.18

Sulfur


1.564

Strontium


.07488

Thallium


.00029

Tin


.00001

Titanium


.00001

Tungsten


.00003

Vanadium


.00053

Zinc


.00352



Trace or Undeclared Amounts:

Beryllium, Bromine, Bismuth, Cadmium, Carbon, Cesium, Cerium, Chromium, Gallium, Hydrogen, Indium, Iridium, Niobium, Osmium, Oxygen, Palladium, Platinum, Radium, Rhodium, Silver, Tellurium, Thorium, Uranium, Zirconium

 

[Pepe le skunk]

Using a product called Cyco and was told that it is a good source of Potassium Silcate. Supposed to be the best on the market.
Great that it helps keep PM away.

I just used Cyco, Dutch Masters Saturator(surfactant) and Actinovate funguside as a foiler spray on my babies in flower after treating 3 times in 11 days for PM in week 4 of flower. Also using cyco with waterings to keep PM a thing of the past. The plants have responded by being super smelly and kicking complete ass. Treated with Nuke um and the first round was with just actinovate(week 2) but the PM researged and the Nuke um knocked it out. The last treatment was this mixture and the idea was the Saturator might help transfer the cyco and actinovate to the cells to repair damage with the silica and fortify the leaf surface and internally using the ProTrans delivery technology. Also hoping the funguside will help prevent bud rot. And of course added a ton of air circulation to help any left over moisture evaporate. Humidity is 35%-40%. I'll let you know how everything turns out.
Great thread by the way.
Cheers

 

[blastfrompast]

I don't use it, but buddy does....Same strain's darn near same conditions...his stems are like rocks...mine end up bending/flopping near the end of flower..His really don't.

He did say it is a PH Up I believe...

I can tell a difference tho...Will be adding it for the next round of ladies going in.

 

[guineapig]

Yes if you add silica to pure water your pH will shoot up into the basic range.
However, this isn't a big deal because most growers use fertigation and the fertilizers are
all acidic, so adding a bit of silica will help get the pH into the 6.0-6.5 zone.

I just found out today that a certain grower who grows absolutely spectacularly not only
adds silica to the nutrient solution, but also foliar feeds with silica solution. The results
are pretty amazing. Strange that some information said silica was mostly absorbed at
the root level and not much by foliar feeding. I am really not sure what to think about
that, but I would like to see more information and especially scientific journal articles.

Also, I have heard rumors that silica solution can cause lock-out of certain micronutrients
but honestly I don't remember where I heard this, and I can't find any data to back this
up. Does anyone remember seeing anything about silica solution and nutrient lock-out?
I have only seen good things from growers who use silica, so I say keep using that silica.

kind regards from guineapig

 

[YosemiteSam]

Everyone that is claiming benefit from Si...are any of you using a source other than kSilicate? Is K the benefit, or Si? Have any of you designed an experiment to separate the two?

I have a hard time seeing any benefit myself. Once you get Ca and B up where they really need to be I see zero benefit in stem strength, etc. But maybe I am missing something.

I am looking for ways to get Si without K. My problem is that as soon as I start using compost/ewc I am getting as much or more K than I want...adding more starts to mess with cec base saturations and I see more negative from that than positive from Si...every time.

My problem is that I wonder if amorphous silica from DE, or Red Lake Earth or soft rock is even available...opinions seem to differ.

I am just completely unconvinced at this point.

Then again, I have been wrong plenty of times.

 

[Twisted pleasur]

This is funny I was using a line up of
Flora nova
Liquid Kool Bloom
Hydrozym
Bloombastic
Cal Mag Plus
Molasses
Over Drive
Carbo Load
And Rhino Skin
was one of the last peices of the puzzle for me. I couldn't beleive the results were outrageous used 2mil per gal. Every feeding.

So recently I decided to try aptus and basically changed over night. To complete aptus. Thinking let me see if I can do better.

I have never had PM in my life.

Now I have PM and floppy stems my buds are just falling everyware.
Pissing me off.

This just shows me that Im an idiot back to my 3 year old soil that I built from tons of grows in it and rhino skin.

Learn the hard way.
Thanks guys for all the insight. You made up my mind for me.

Im going to add rhino to my veg too.

T~P

 

[dizzlekush]

Everyone that is claiming benefit from Si...are any of you using a source other than kSilicate? Is K the benefit, or Si? Have any of you designed an experiment to separate the two?

I have a hard time seeing any benefit myself. Once you get Ca and B up where they really need to be I see zero benefit in stem strength, etc. But maybe I am missing something.

I am looking for ways to get Si without K. My problem is that as soon as I start using compost/ewc I am getting as much or more K than I want...adding more starts to mess with cec base saturations and I see more negative from that than positive from Si...every time.

My problem is that I wonder if amorphous silica from DE, or Red Lake Earth or soft rock is even available...opinions seem to differ.

I am just completely unconvinced at this point.

Then again, I have been wrong plenty of times.

Hey buddy, the only other Si product that offers pretty much 100% available silicic acid immediately to the plant is sodium silicate, so I think you'll find potassium silicate to be essentially the only silicate product being used.

I have a feeling that you may be over-applying the Ksilicate if you're worried about the K levels (especially if you're still using coco). You should only really be applying 3-5ppm Si each watering, 10ppm max, cannabis plants has no use for more than that. I personally find it very hard to believe that the levels of K from the K-sil are possibly having any negative effects on your crop, what are these negatives you see? how are you quantifying them? Brix readings? plant yield? plant/soil pH? soil base cation saturation tests?

You've really hit the nail on the head though with Ca and B increasing plant strength and preventing pests & disease, the best kept secret in this community r.e. fertigation IMO, along with the Ca/B and Si/B synergy. Obviously since they are essential while Si is supplementary there role in this overall plant health/strength is much more important. And here's where you might be missing the results from Si applications.

Si is one of those additives that shows its benefits when the plant is met with in-optimal conditions. Another such group of additives are brassinosteroids. Both when applied to a totally happy plant may have no noticeable benefits. When in-optimal conditions arise though, such as drought, salinity buildup, heat stress, cold stress or any pests and diseases, the benefits of these additives become much more obvious.

Once I doubted the Epibrassinolide I had purchased was actually still viable since i was seeing no visible improvements in growth. So I decided to do a drought test and didn't water 2 plants, one treated with the EPI and another in the control group. It took the control plant 3 days to wilt and it took the EPI plant 13 days, after that I was convinced the EPIN was legitimate. I know your Q was about Si, but this is just an example of how some additives that are supposed to essentially increase plant defenses wont show obvious improvements when conditions are near optimal, they mainly help mitigate negative inputs instead of just improve growth overall. Since you're probably right on the sweet spot with your Ca and B, and don't have many negative issues with your crop ATM, the benefits of the Si are probably pretty hard to see. That should be considered a good thing. I hope I don't have to try to convince you that the Si still has benefits whether you visibly see them or not, I think you know its about more that just the 15-17 'essential and what the eyes can see. See the below studies for good examples of Si improving prophylactic response/mitigating issues even in crops that it doesn't improve growth rates in (wheat in this case).

 

[dizzlekush]

Strange that some information said silica was mostly absorbed at
the root level and not much by foliar feeding. I am really not sure what to think about
that, but I would like to see more information and especially scientific journal articles.

Also, I have heard rumors that silica solution can cause lock-out of certain micronutrients
but honestly I don't remember where I heard this, and I can't find any data to back this
up. Does anyone remember seeing anything about silica solution and nutrient lock-out?

You are correct in your learning that Si is only absorbed through the roots.

Effect of root and foliar applications of silicon on brown spot development in rice
D. C. Rezende, F. Á. Rodrigues, V. Carré-Missio, D. A. Schurt, I. K. Kawamura and G. H. Korndörfer

Abstract. Silicon (Si) application is a strategy to manage rice brown spot, but no studies have been conducted on Si as a foliar spray for control of this disease. The purpose of this study was to compare root and foliar Si applications on rice brown spot development, and to determine if there is a biochemical defence response. Rice plants (cv. Metica-1) were grown in a Si-deficient soil that received the following treatments: root application of calcium silicate (CS) (1.25 g/kg of soil), foliar application of potassium silicate (PS) (40 g/L), and control (leaves sprayed with distilled water). Thirty-day-old plants were inoculated with a conidial suspension of Bipolaris oryzae. Si concentration in rice tissue was markedly higher for CS compared with the other treatments. The intensity of Si deposition, as determined by X-ray microanalysis, between the adaxial and abaxial leaf blades of rice plants in the control treatment was similar. Si deposition occurred in both the adaxial and abaxial leaf blades of rice plants that received CS while this Si deposition only occurred on the adaxial leaf blades of plants that received PS. The area under brown spot progress curve (AUBSPC) was not significantly different between the PS and control treatments, but was significantly lower in plants grown in soil amended with CS. The values for the AUBSPC and the number of lesions (NL) per cm2 of leaf area decreased by 37 and 47%, respectively, with CS compared with the control. Conidial germination was not inhibited by PS. The concentration of total soluble phenolics and lignin-thioglycolic acid derivatives was not linked with the reduction observed in the AUBSPC and the NL. Although the concentration of these two biochemical variables seemed to be slightly higher in plants from the control treatment, likely due to the greater disease severity and the NL, rice tissue was not efficiently protected against colonisation by B. oryzae. The results of this study suggest that foliar-applied Si can decrease the intensity of brown spot; however, the level of control achieved was not as great as that obtained when Si was supplied to the roots.

Effect of root and foliar applications of soluble silicon on powdery mildew control and growth of wheat plants
M.-H. Guével & J. G. Menzies & R. R. Bélanger

Abstract Foliar and root applications of different silicon (Si)-based formulations were evaluated for their effects in reducing powdery mildew and pro- moting growth of wheat plants. X-ray microanalyses of treated plants revealed that root applications resulted in consistent deposition of Si in the leaves. In terms of powdery mildew control, root applications at 1.7 mM Si gave consistently the best results, reducing disease severity by as much as 80%, regardless of the product used. Although less effective than root applications, foliar treatments with both Si and nutrient salt solutions led to a significant reduction of powdery mildew on wheat plants. This suggests a direct effect of the products on powdery mildew rather than one mediated by the plant as in the case of root amendments. In our experiments, Si amendment, either through the roots or the leaves, did not increase plant growth.These results lead to the conclusion that Si is primarily, if not exclusively, absorbed by the root system and that such absorption by the roots is necessary for an optimal prophylactic effect.

You are also correct that Si can lock out nutrients. Si and S are real a$$holes when it comes to precipitating with stuff in concentrated solutions. This will only happen with Si when pH is > 8.0 or if Si reaches >55 mg/l and will only happen with a fraction of the Si. I don't know what Si preferentially precipitates with, but my guess would be Ca, maybe P or S.

sources:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...08xE7w&sig=AHIEtbToOBuwgUQqzp_H6-nEb9uEqiNC9w
http://pdf.lookchem.com/pdf/22/5f918ad9-bcfb-47c8-b7de-97bb5ef669c2.pdf

 

[Twisted pleasur]

Question

Lets say u are having a lock out issue due to SI

What would be the best way to flush it out of mediums?

Just curious if it would b any different then any other element?


T~P

 

[YosemiteSam]

dk...I am in soil now. I get all of the p and k I need from compost...perhaps more. I am learning to limit compost based on my p and k needs. I shoot for equal part Mg and K.

So, for example say a 35 tcec. Mg goal would be tcec (35) x 240 (ME of Mg) x .11 (I shoot for 11% base cation saturation of Mg) = 924 lbs per acre or 462 ppm. So I would shoot for 462 ppm of K also...easy to get with compost. I now want all of this stuff to be non soluble but available...held by the cec.

By the way...the Mg = K is work done by Nutri Tech...it maximizes P uptake and for the soil I work in still adheres to Albrecht ratios. In this case it would put K base cation saturation at 3.4%.

Honestly even bagged soils have that much K...Black and Gold or Happy Frog both exceed those levels.

When I was trying KSil I was using 0.7 grams per gallon in the res...100 ppm Si and 50 ppm K. Guess that might have been more than I need.

I did read Hugh Lovell's stuff on B and Si and it made sense. I just have not figured out how to go about it yet or what lab measures it.

edit...sorry I did not answer your question. Brix, sap EC and sap pH are the metrics I use. Get those right yield and quality follow...at least for me.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Question

Lets say u are having a lock out issue due to SI

What would be the best way to flush it out of mediums?

Just curious if it would b any different then any other element?


T~P

Do tell...what exactly would Si lock out?

Si will be an anion in solution. It is not held by negative colloids like your typical cations. Therefore, it is easily flushed merely by watering to runoff. Be careful though, you will also be flushing nitrate, sulfate and all soluble phosphates.

 

[dizzlekush]

When I was trying KSil I was using 0.7 grams per gallon in the res...100 ppm Si and 50 ppm K. Guess that might have been more than I need.

I did read Hugh Lovell's stuff on B and Si and it made sense. I just have not figured out how to go about it yet or what lab measures it.

edit...sorry I did not answer your question. Brix, sap EC and sap pH are the metrics I use. Get those right yield and quality follow...at least for me.

Just for clarification, 0.7 grams per gallon of AgSil16H is ~100ppm SiO2, making it ~45ppm Si.

YS the chatter going on over at TGC is making me want to buy all these meters and start testing my plants out myself. If I'm going to be completely honest, Im currently satified with what I can achieve in yield and potency, but im not satisfied with the smell/taste and pest/disease resistance of my crops currently. sounds like you guys are getting some improvements in those areas over at TGC.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Right on on the Si. I make that mistake all the time.

You will be surprised. Get your brix over 12 (really like over 15) and your sap pH around 6.4...no mo pests/disease. And the bonus...essential oil production goes up, like big time. I am starting to measure sap EC to control energy levels...soil or no it is so easy to use a little ammonium sulfate to bump up the ol energy levels.

John Kempf claims triple the essential oil production on other herbs. No stress on the plant and balanced nutrition. Listen to the audio files C Ray posted by him in the refractometer thread I think...I think that last audio file of him he talks about this. So much for the stress the plant to make it produce thc...horseshit.

But hang on...he loves foliar feeds to build humus. I will leave it at that, but it sounds like solid logic to me...gonna give it a go this summer.

 

[Twisted pleasur]

Do tell...what exactly would Si lock out?

Si will be an anion in solution. It is not held by negative colloids like your typical cations. Therefore, it is easily flushed merely by watering to runoff. Be careful though, you will also be flushing nitrate, sulfate and all soluble phosphates.

Ok not sure if it is SI at all but currious.

Let me explain the premise of my inquiry.

This is what I was doing before aptus.

I have soil beds that I turn with botanicare pure bloom,lime,and epsome starter plus. I only water around the base of the buckets and tables with tea only.

I veg. In three gallon buckets which have the bottoms cut out. I have another uncut bucket slipped over the cut one. (hope that makes sense) When I turn back I slip off the otter bucket exposing the bottom and sit them on my tables. They inturn root down.

I water the buckets lightly with food (including rhino skin) then tea alternating between the two. Its an amaizing system. Feel stupid for ever switching from this. But I always have to play other wise I get board. Anyway back to what I was saying.

When Im done and chop the crop I take the buckets and ripp them out off the tables. Dump them out a table and remove the root ball. And refill my buckets with the soil again.

What seems to happen now is I have a lockout issue now matter what I do. Interveinal chlorosis. Which appears to be a mag def. And no matter what I seem to do I cant stop it. Different veg foods and different ph idk. And was wondering being afraid to flush to much if maybe SI build up could be the issue. And flushing was the answer. Don't get me wrong they veg. Through it but I know they would be better if I fixed the issue.
It gets pretty severe on some strains.

But here is the kicker as soon as I put them in my beds they grow right out of it and the problem goes away. I dnt know if its because the needs of the plants change in 12/12 and the begin to use Phosphate or Potassium or SI and the issue goes away. Or if there is something the flower food or tables Im lacking in veg. I can't seem to iron it out.

Im sorry don't want to jack the thread.

I sure would appreciat your insight.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I understand the pot thing.

I don't understand the difference between your veg and flower. Same soil right?

If that soil is good for flower why do you feel the need to add to it for veg?