-
As of today ICMag has his own Discord server. In this Discord server you can chat, talk with eachother, listen to music, share stories and pictures...and much more. Join now and let's grow together! Join ICMag Discord here! More details in this thread here: here.
Inbreeding VS. Outbreeding
- Thread starter xet
- Start date
If I was a breeder (which I’m certainly not) I think I would try inbreeding 2 parallel lines for separate traits I was looking for, then smash em together as an outcross. Hopefully both lines would be inbred/different enough to make a pretty uniform f1.
Maybe.
Or not.
I’m rather high.
Maybe.
Or not.
I’m rather high.
S
sourpuss
Moneys on outbreed!! What r the odds??
you need both. outbreeding to bring in new traits, inbreeding to fix them in a line. you need to be aware of inbreeding depression, but you still need inbreeding tob stabilize.
they're doing exactly that with a lot of crops, everytime you see f1 on a packet of paprika/tomato seeds it's basically that
except they also test-cross the lines each generation to get the maximum hybrid vigour.
they're doing exactly that with a lot of crops, everytime you see f1 on a packet of paprika/tomato seeds it's basically that
except they also test-cross the lines each generation to get the maximum hybrid vigour.
I think in nature the plant benefits always from outbreeding.
More genotypes is always going to be better at insuring that the population as a whole does not go down in the face of any number of natural threats to its survival there are.
Diversity gives the plant resilience.
For our purposes uncontrolled outbreeding is disastrous because it can dilute traits that we want to increase or retain.
So for the breeder, inbreeding is his major tool but this can bring recessive genes to life that can result in a plant that subsequently loses it's capacity to survive in other situations than the one it is in.
For the plant, outbreeding is advantageous for survival.
I wrote that while pretty high, so ask or correct me later if it reads incorrectly etc.
More genotypes is always going to be better at insuring that the population as a whole does not go down in the face of any number of natural threats to its survival there are.
Diversity gives the plant resilience.
For our purposes uncontrolled outbreeding is disastrous because it can dilute traits that we want to increase or retain.
So for the breeder, inbreeding is his major tool but this can bring recessive genes to life that can result in a plant that subsequently loses it's capacity to survive in other situations than the one it is in.
For the plant, outbreeding is advantageous for survival.
I wrote that while pretty high, so ask or correct me later if it reads incorrectly etc.
I read that while pretty high and it made sense to me.
The only thing I would contribute is about the harmful recessives with inbreeding. These will result because of homozygosity but should be culled (or may not survive anyway). What else goes with them would be the concern (in those plants). But I don’t think the cannabis population has bottlenecked to that extreme.
The only thing I would contribute is about the harmful recessives with inbreeding. These will result because of homozygosity but should be culled (or may not survive anyway). What else goes with them would be the concern (in those plants). But I don’t think the cannabis population has bottlenecked to that extreme.
brown_thumb
Active member
I think the issues we saw in Monarchical families of the past give us the answer.
You need both for different reasons.
Inbreeding doesn't create much depression when you are dealing in large numbers. Like when field grown landrace plants open pollinate each other. There is enough variation to keep that extreme vigor, and the environment does usually eliminate the unfit ones. I think this is the more natural process.
When a breeder inbreeds it can be one individual x one individual and then only those seeds are grown for future populations. This can be bad and good mostly due to luck but also the skill of the breeder and the numbers used. Good traits can be isolated but bad ones can also sneak in. Proper testing can avoid these problems.
Outbreeding seems to be the industry standard these days. Dominant traits are only expressed in the F1 so you don't need to worry about recessive traits at all which makes it far quicker and simpler to make some money. But there are problems here too. The best plants to make a F1 from are inbred lines. So when F1 X F1 X F1 X F1 happens the diversity can become too much and the seeds become almost useless to find representations of either parent plant in the progeny. Especially when some of those F1's are interrelated lines from points in their recent history ~50 years basically all of modern cannabis breeding history is very recent in terms of the evolutionary history of the plant.
IMHO a properly reproduced IBL with good variation and vigor deserves my maximum respect. I think this is the healthiest place a gene pool can be and also not the easiest to accomplish.
Inbreeding doesn't create much depression when you are dealing in large numbers. Like when field grown landrace plants open pollinate each other. There is enough variation to keep that extreme vigor, and the environment does usually eliminate the unfit ones. I think this is the more natural process.
When a breeder inbreeds it can be one individual x one individual and then only those seeds are grown for future populations. This can be bad and good mostly due to luck but also the skill of the breeder and the numbers used. Good traits can be isolated but bad ones can also sneak in. Proper testing can avoid these problems.
Outbreeding seems to be the industry standard these days. Dominant traits are only expressed in the F1 so you don't need to worry about recessive traits at all which makes it far quicker and simpler to make some money. But there are problems here too. The best plants to make a F1 from are inbred lines. So when F1 X F1 X F1 X F1 happens the diversity can become too much and the seeds become almost useless to find representations of either parent plant in the progeny. Especially when some of those F1's are interrelated lines from points in their recent history ~50 years basically all of modern cannabis breeding history is very recent in terms of the evolutionary history of the plant.
IMHO a properly reproduced IBL with good variation and vigor deserves my maximum respect. I think this is the healthiest place a gene pool can be and also not the easiest to accomplish.
RedDirtWarrior
Member
imo all the f1 x f1 x f1's makes some grail plants in terms of vigor potency n whatnot.
people need to learn to save genetic and keep cuttings. you really shouldn't breed to get a true representation from seed but rather preserve the genetic gene pool and get all possible expressions fom it.
Which sucks because the market wants 5 seeds, all of which will all sprout and make a female plan with desired characteristics - which isn't ideal in preserving genetic variation.
xet
Active member
Does a landrace intelligently choose to outbreed within the population (i.e. specifically choosing the most outbred results unlike the forced copulation via human intervention)?
If this were true would this still qualify as inbred or if the variation is vast enough within the landrace population (1M plants?) is it not so far from inbred as to be perfectly defined as outbred for it's own ecosystem?
Not to say true inbred does not occur but perhaps the pollen is so heavy in the given area that female plants 1) have built-in stimuli to reject closely inbred counterparts 2) receive the highest variation of pollen (in the same manner the strongest variant sperm compete (not saying there is sperm but that similar mechanisms facilitate similar outcomes)) 3) the male plant pollen is as well designed to "plug-in" to the most outbred result and 4) Males and females are even trading pheromones through some type of electronic transport via terpenes which result in the plants intelligently manufacturing faculties to receive the greatest genetic outbred result
xet
Active member
4) Males and females are even trading pheromones through some type of electronic transport via terpenes which result in the plants intelligently manufacturing faculties to receive the greatest genetic outbred result
Meaning the plants/nature are pre-determining which plants to "copulate" with and which to not copulate with
xet
Active member
And in the third-world where seeds are plenty but growing methods are limited to local soil conditions we see 5-20 seeds planted per hole so the weaker sprouts are culled but germination is guaranteed.
A war over great seeds is not a bad thing. Government regulating how much effort we produce for the industry is a most terrible thing.
xet
Active member
The way nature is setup you are right both must occur and whatever we do to preserve genetics maybe the outbreeding is more a factor of the final outcome from mother nature than what we ever try to turn it into.
It is fun too pursuing a deeper blue or blackberry flavor, or strawberry, mango, carrot, and have the plant perform a miracle and give what the human wants after trial/error
