Inbreeding.....the Skill of the Breeder.....

[jamin72]

plants are fundimantally different from animals its not that far of a strech to think that inbreeding plants will have diffeerent results that inbreeding animals. usually the f1 generation of animals inbread is more likely to show defects but a plant inbread to the f1 generation arent likely going to have defects,just less vigor than the hybrids.

 

[JLP]

One of the things that the article didn't point out is that almost every one of the unions was an arranged marrige.An arranged marrige is in effect a breeding program.The parent will choose a mate with the most desirable traits much the same way we choose plants for breeding.The one caveat in the case of the arranged marrige however is that sometimes the most desirable trait is money or status,niether of which have anything to do with genetics.On the other hand,if you have a child with a cleft pallete and 14 fingers they will most likely become the responsability of thier own families as it would be difficult to find a mate.


Here's a good link to another article on genetic diversity posted by Shipperke:

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=18434

JLP

 

[Guest]

plants are fundimantally different from animals its not that far of a strech to think that inbreeding plants will have diffeerent results that inbreeding animals. usually the f1 generation of animals inbread is more likely to show defects but a plant inbread to the f1 generation arent likely going to have defects,just less vigor than the hybrids.

According to Mendel you are quite off track. How can you Inbreed a Plant to the F1 generation? Filial Generations are derived from breeding Brothers and Sisters of the same Hybrid and generation. Therefore producing an F2 from breeding a male and female of the F1 generation. The F1 generation and Hybrid Vigor comes from Crossing 2 true breeding parents of Different genetic stock. In Mendels research it was the Yellow and Green Peas but it holds true for all angiosperms.

 

[redwood-roots]

Great thread..I learned alot...besides laughed alot!

 

[Fat Albert]

so in a breeding project should you maintain and label all of your backcrosses just in case that final backcross proves disastrous and results in a "prince charles"-looking plant?

so BOG would have bx1, bx2 and bx3 populations......but when he tries a bx4 and gets a "prince charles" plant that has no chlorophyll and ears that stick out, at least he maintained the other backcrosses which he could test-cross with other varieties for some hybrid vigour?

OMFG

Coffee just came out of my nose


Fat A

 

[coffinman]

I agree that breeding from poor plants leads to poor plants, however lets look at what happens in a closed environment in nature in the way that Darwin did. In the Gallapagus Islands, rather than all the plants and animals dieing off due to inbreeding, they evolved into some of the most beautifull and amazing animals and plants on earth. In breeding in itself is not a bad thing, as it does as you say start the evolutionary forces at work. These mutations can be both good and bad, and selection is of course key. I recently killed off a plant after choosing a very healthy male to breed with. Trouble is he turned out sterile. Great back to the paper towels, but that certainly does not mean that his brother will be. In nature the variations that are not beneficial tend to die out, those that are are kept. It's the very process that brought us into existance, and which determines that some of us die young and some of us live on into old age, and those of us with exeptionally athletic or what ever genes do really well.

The galapagos simile is alot like indoor growing. The whole problem in inbreeding is that we don't know the complete genetic makeup of mj. There are just too many variables and possible combinations of genetic information to be able to say that you have successfully stabilized a lineage. If you continue to use seeds, say from F1 to F20 of a stabilized strain, you will have to see mutations that were never there in the original strain. This is probably due to how chromosomes split and reattach during mitosis in either the prophase or the metaphase. When this happens the dice eventually have to turn up craps.
Shipperk Yes originated from single celled organisms but it wasn't just one at the getgo.

Where's Suzy? She would like this discussion.

 

[Guest]

inbreeding..it's like peeling back the genetic layers to see what lies beneath it all

well I found an interesting site about miniature cattle breeds the other day, something I had no idea existed, and it piqued my interest so I dug around and found this interesting article about a breeding program for a particular breed of miniature cattle...seems the guy really knows his stuff and he offers some interesting tips for instance he believes that inbreeding depression occurs when more than 50% influence of any one ancestor occurs, something to think about...

 

[Guest]

I can't resist I have to post this cut and paste from the mini cattle site, it has some important points I do believe:

A NEW BREED OR JUST CROSSBREEDING?
By Professor Emeritus Richard Gradwohl

The key to development of a new breed of cattle is strict control of sire and dam within a preplanned written breeding program. Notice I use the words preplanned and written. This means it should be well conceived and well thought out. I had a person call a few days ago wanting to register a new breed of miniature cattle. I asked if they had developed a breeding program outline? Answer - No. I asked if a sire or sires had been chosen for the new breed? Answer - No. I asked if a method of evaluating potential dams had been developed? Answer - No. I asked if they were going to linebreed to increase the herd? Answer - What's that? I asked if they were going to allow any inbreeding? Answer - Why not. I asked if they had chosen an appropriate name for the new breed? Answer - No. I asked what the appearance of the new breed was going to be? Answer - Whatever it is. I asked how are you going to cull animals? Answer - None.

These answers are typical of the complete misunderstanding and lack of knowledge concerning breed development. I suggested that they were just crossbreeding which was a world apart from developing a new breed. I also suggested that when they had some animals on the ground they might want to consider registering them in the open breeds category. The MCBR Open Breeds is not a category of registered breeds, the only requirement is the height standard. The development of a breed of miniature cattle requires patience, experience and a positive explanation to all of the above questions. A breeding program means standards and rules have been determined against which future animals are compared and measured. A breed is defined as "A group of animals with similar characteristics from a common background that reproduces itself similarly within an acceptable range of standards". The breeding program is an outline of the plan showing how you intend to get where you want to go. It allows a certain amount of flexibility within standards so that individual breeders can make appropriate choices as to the characteristics they want to emphasize. Culling needs to take place if animals do not fall within the acceptable range of standards.

Developing a new breed of cattle can take years. The first cross is like the first step in a long process. What you are trying to accomplish is the focusing of genetics so that there is the prepotency to reproduce similarly within an acceptable range of standards. Those that develop the standards and determine the acceptable range can put an animal within or out of that range. What is a cull can be a subjective decision. The Dexter breed for example can reproduce short or long legged animals. Sometimes you can breed short to short and get tall. Other times you might breed tall to tall and get short legged animals. Most of the time the progeny resemble the parents but when the progeny do not resemble the parents is it still a Dexter or a cull? What are the acceptable standards and what is the range of acceptability. If there is no agreement regarding these questions, then is the Dexter really a breed. The registry says that if a registered Dexter is bred to a registered Dexter then it's a Dexter. I guess that solves the problem, or does it?

To a large extent it all depends on your breeding goals. Cattle shows give ribbons out to those animals that are thought to be on the high end of the range of acceptable standards. But is that just a matter of a judge's perception? It seems what one judge says is most desirable is not necessarily the same as what the next cattle judge might say. I've been the show route and received a first place blue ribbon and at the next show a third place ribbon in competition with pretty much the same animals but with a different judge. Is there the perfect breed and the prefect animal? You bet!! and of course I own both. Of course that is just my opinion.

Breed development is not easy but it sure is interesting and a lot of fun. To tell you the truth I've been breeding cattle for 35 years with a lot of success but frankly I feel I'm just starting to learn a few things. When you are dealing with nature and trying to influence genetics nothing is for sure. As an example, I had a fellow call me the other day to buy some miniature cattle. He wanted me to guarantee that every animal would be under 42" at three years of age. Of course I couldn't make such a guarantee. He said he had a fellow in Texas who would make that guarantee in writing. I replied "buy all you can but be sure and have your attorney read his guarantee first".

 

[The Dopest]

hey man, thats my parents


jk hey great read Gypsy i finally got to finish it. thanks for the info.

 

[JLP]

Nice link C-Ray.


I too was un-aware of miniature cattle.From the site it appears to be a well developed industry though.


JLP

 

[Guest]

lui f2s?! oh man!!

 

[coffinman]

Damn if my wife sees those pics of mini cows she is going to want one.
Thanks C-ray

 

[Guest]

no doubt, I'd love to have a small herd myself (pardon the pun)
they are incidently much happier in groups than in singles

 

[Awol/CoA]

so in a breeding project should you maintain and label all of your backcrosses just in case that final backcross proves disastrous and results in a "prince charles"-looking plant?

kind regards, guineapig

Hahaha, that's bloody funny man, and a fine example I must add... :smile:

 

[DocLeaf]

INBREEDING:...

Inbreeding does hold some potential problems...

Indeed it does Sir When in-bred the "survival factor" is bred-out of species/sub-species rapidly,,, (a common factor in everyday crops). That is genetic gene pools require deviancy from time to time, in order to maintain genetic variation.

This thread is really interestng cause it would appear that many inbred/isolated landrace strain of cannabis are/were specifically bred with reliable cultivated IBL's to avoid the problems you mention. (Chitral x Skunk#1 is one such example). Jah bless Dutch ethic and its horti-mindfulness

peace and all that grows with DL

 

[DocLeaf]

On a closer note, we just developed our first strain Saxon Axe
Please take a look http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=20124&page=2&pp=15

Saxon Axe is at the stage where-by we don't know what the screw to do read Mendel and science to 16, but looking for something a little more natural than this... She smokes like a dream and is worth every mineral of time given,,, she will always be a grow and smoke strain only,,, but we'd like any input on how best to capture her spirit from here-on in since we only have few seeds to play with. (we always have the option of back crossing her onto either parent strain, NorthernLight or Sensi Star).

Is inbreeding the most logical option?

thanks for your time
any advice is some ting' we didn't have before
peace DocLeaf

 

[Guest]

hmmm

 

[DocLeaf]

"time alone, sweet time will tell..." Thanks c-ray

 

[tiedye420]

LMAO
but a truer statement cannot be found
as hendrix once said "are you experienced?"
Hey if I had a hundred sisters and screwed them all until they got preggers.
wouldn' t some of the children come out ok? cause i could just shooot the fu%&*ed up ones! L.O.L.

sprout the seeds, take clones, do the inbreeding, backcrosses, forwardcrosses and sidewayscrosses, no way to figure out how the genes will combine without the aid of a good crystal ball, nor will you gain experience without the experience that you gain by experiencing the experiments

 

[DocLeaf]

LMAO
but a truer statement cannot be found
as hendrix once said "are you experienced?"

"Even if you live in a little room, you see a lot of things..." Hendrix