In-Out/ Transition shedules and lighting

[Guest]

We made it over the hump and spring is on the down hill side! It wont be long until were starting seedlings and getting ready to move them outside.

Starting seeds indoors and moving them outdoors is a process that is exclusive to us here in the outdoor and is an aspect of growing that many of us deal with each spring. The only right method is the one that works for you, and there are probably as many methods of transition from in to out as there are growers. I thought I would share my process and hope that others will share theirs.

To me, the most optimal way to germ and ready seedlings for the outdoors is to wait until the weather warms, put seeds in a cup and let ol sol do its thing. Ive come to believe that this will result in the most females, the best growth and the earliest finish. Im inpatient however and by the time the weather warms enough for this, I want to be planting. So I start 1 batch early like this:

I germ the seeds under 24 hrs light starting 30 days before my intended transplant date.. As soon as they pop through the soil, my lighting schedule is changed to mimic the outdoor light hours, which for my lattitude is just over 14 hrs in early spring,. I also mimic the rate of daylight change that is occurring in the outdoors.

Ive made a good showing already, but I feel the following statement will secure my nomination for Kook of the year.
I have come to believe the most stressful component in the indoor grow room is the automatic timer. Timers make each day the same lenght and cannabis has spent the last several million years evolving to fit an outdoor enviroment where each day is a different length , longer or shorter, depending on the season and lattitued. I have found it beneficial to accomodate this natural order.

At my lat, the spring daylenth seems to increase by 1-2 minutes per day, so from the day my seedling hatch, I add 1.5 minutes per day to their lighting schedule for the 14 to 21 days of their indoor life and then set outside to harden with the final indoor daylenth and rate of increase being equal to that which is occuring outdoors in nature at my lat.

I have come to believe that cannabis may assess its age through the summation of this daily incremental increase,(or deacrease in the fall), and only by incoorportating these time increments into the pregrow time can one insure that the pregrow time is included as a factor in the maturity of the plant. . Its been my experience that plants started in this manner consistently finsish earlier.

I have come to believe that the plants started in this stable manner will be happy, especially the fem seeds . Its not nice to fool with mother nature, so dont fight the current. Allow the natural order to proceed and you'll benefit.

More females, bigger heatlthier, heavier plants in OCtober than anything else ive tried. Its also my veiw that results of germination and pregrowing are best measured in October, as opposed to may.

I cant be the only obsessive grower here. Lets here some more methods of transition.

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

This year I am switching primarily to clones again, I selected a handfull of last years seedlings in August, and moved them under lights, they are now being taken care of by a medical grower friend indoors. We are cloning and forcing them to find the best, and also more seeds are being planted, so we can evaluate and find the best moms for the upcoming season. Also I'll be planting a local medical clone that is a selection of Godbud.

The moms are all being held on a 16/8 light cycle to match the light cycles in May/June, so that moving outdoors is not a shock.

 

[North]

SB- you...obsessive?..yeah maybe a little!

I'll also be starting with new strains this year, bunch of stuff from the boys @ UDG.

I'll stick with my usual methods this year to get a feel for the strains, and will play around more next year( ith beans I've made), after I know more about what I'm dealing with.

My usual method is 24/7 till all seeds sprout, then dial back the hours 30 min. a day till i meet local daylight hours for my Lat.

hardening off, starts about 7-10 days before transplant, start at an hour a day in the shade the first day and then add an hour a day each day, plus move them to more direct light as the things progress.
I also start the outdoor light transition by getting them out either early or late in the day so the sun's not so intense.

All in all, I think mimicing nature as much as possible is the best thing you can do, but work, family, and the real world all play a part in how things happen, so I do the best I can given the variables.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Quality stuff as ever Silverback, I am merely an apprentice obsessive !

I had some problems in 2008 with indoor plants flowering when put outside, despite my "care" .... I believe the issues were due to the 3 weeks of 24h light they had [broken timer, lying store owners...] before I reduced light to 18, then 17 > 16 > 15.5 ..... seeds started months later overtook what should have been my 6 monsters.

From observation, I am pretty sure I saw clones flowering later than seeds, certain I saw variations of +/- 10 days in identical clones flowering between microclimates, usually the lushest first. For this reason I am growing 100% from seed for my own garden.

Currently I have 2 month old accidental seedlings growing from my old Cheese's Coco pot, surviving snows and frost and showing no signs of flowering despite the current low low daylight hours, I cannot explain that but think they deserve a chance just for their hardiness !

 

[LazLo]

I use wet paper towel method to crack the beans. Next into the soil in 16 oz cups. Then under four 40W flouros at 18 hours. Two flouros are grow bulbs and the other 2 are office whites. Timer is reduced by 45 minutes each week to 15 hours 15 minutes. Temp around 78 F in "nursery" with lighting and about 68 F in dark. Also run 6" desk fan 24 hours. Nursery is a confined space with some ventilation to allow exchange of air.

To harden off, the cups are placed in cardboard box facing south (covered with green poultry cloth to keep critters out) and set on deck/porch next to building. One hour after sunrise to coincide with timer switching on. Four or 5 days of increasing outdoor time and then they get put out a few increasing hours at night until they pull an all nighter. Within a few days, they are in their forever homes.

During the hardening off process, I observe how each strain reacts to day and night temps. The planting time of each is dependent on those results. Even so, the late May 08 frost got 7 of my 20. That usually is followed by another year or 2 like it. Soooo......This year I'm planting 2 weeks later making the germing date 2 weeks later as well.

I'm inclined to think that steady temps of 68 to 79 F during germination and those first 3 to 4 weeks results in higher female to male ratio.

Before my pal died a few years ago, we would compare our grows. He supplied the seeds, I used my "nursery" and he started his seeds where he grew them-under the overhang of his 80' long south facing wall. His male ratio was the opposite of mine. However.....his girls became 10 footers from on site water while I hauled mine 2 gallons at a time in a backpack.

silverback

That's some sophisticated timer you have that can do minutes. All mine do are increments of 15 minutes.

OCD is not always a bad thing. It's the direction it takes that can enlighten and enrich us. Darwin, Muir, Mendel, Edison were obsessed. You are in great company!




You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things, like being spanked every day by a middle-aged woman, stuff you pay good money for in later life.
-- Emo Philips

 

[facelift]

I don't have a method, but your thoughts offer up some good ideas. I'm not even sure if I'm doing outdoor this year. Last year my seeds were too fresh. Plenty of natural water around. The seeds are now cured and ready to go. I've had a few different ideas to work with.

The first idea was to start them indoors about 1-2 weeks before they go outside. I have amended the plan by added a 16/8 light schedule during the 2nd week. Unfortunately this plans either gives me a few unsexed plants, or with numbers, 2-3 batches of unsexed plants, and the possibility of getting caught trying to sneak them into the forest, or damage caused by my experience and lack of care.

The second idea, and the one I like best is to use this seed starter kit. It's a tray that came with 72 cups in 12 groups of six. The kit also has a plastic lid to cover the seeds and seedlings from the elements and will produce plenty of humidity and water vapors to condense and drip onto the plants. I would carry this tray empty into the forest along with a small bag of soil and start them in the kit at the site. Then after a week, maybe less, it's into the ground.

The third idea is looking good too and would service multiple sites. It's similar to #2, but would require a few sheets of clear heavy plastic I have. Since the tray is in 12 parts, I can place 3 or for at each site and build a small A-Frame greenhouse to what ever size I choose.

I'm playing by ear, so don't let the ideas stop here. You've got some good ones.

 

[Guest]

Hey all.

facelift, I'd tread lightly where those starter trays are concerned. I am convinced that crowded roots or a bent tap before sexing = males. I use 16 oz cups for that very reason and prefer 20ozers.

Lazlo, I dont have a fancy timer. I have my phone set to go off and for those couple of weeks i have to manually turn them off and on. It sucks and I wouldnt do it if I didn't see something -from it. But honestly, there is a 30-40 day period in the beginning of the season where every minute requires activity, so I just figure this into the effort.

I just couldnt aggree more with your beliefs about temps. Important in my mind.

BC, Im going to do a batch of clones as well. I do both, start a group of seeds and do clones. I wish I could grow out numerous plants to pick a dandy. Im usually stuck choosing the best of 3 or 4 females. Im going to do some white rhino, sensi star and sour bubble clones this summer. The sour bubbles are in the cooker now.

North, life gets in the way of my growing as well. I wish i could make growing my carrer. Im going to do one of BreederBrads strains this summer and I have some friesland x blueberry seeds that i look at with interest all the time.

Hey chaos. You make an interesting statement about clones flowering later. A great number of breeders and experienced growers will argue all day long that the fastest way to flower any cannabis plant is to wait untill mid to late june, start the seed and it will begin to flower quickly. Their contention is that the plants don't have time to develop a significant amount of auxins which supposedly act to delay flowering. Clones, because of their age, have produced significant amounts of auxins which will impact the finish date according to those who profess this understanding. I am undecided. I have definately seen clones mature sooner than some seed plants, but I just dont know..

Obsessive? I also play music at a low level for my plants during the day. Ive found they enjoy love song instumentals even better than classical. For the nightime I have a little box that kicks on when the lights go out that makes natual sounds. It plays a little number called "warm summers eve" which has crickets and frogs. this makes the plant so happy and Im rewarded with juicy resin!

 

[zapatoloco]

crickets and frogs beat fancy additives any day !

 

[headimonster]

good thread -

sb- when do you like to put ur seedlings outside im bout the same lat. n i was thinkin bout goin out in late april, startin in around feb. whats ur input?

 

[medicine farmer]

Where is back country? he needs to amend the outdoor strain guide he started to ask about pre-veg, pre-veg light cycle, and date they went outdoors in the first place!

 

[Guest]

headimonster, Ive tried many differernt things and this is what produces the biggest, fastest finishing plants for me.

My transplant dates that direct my seed starting activity are generally between aprl 25th and may 5th.

Its my view that older plants suffer lighting changes and transplant shock much more than a seedling does and the impact increases as the plant ages. I have found that after about 40 days of seedling pregrowth, transplanting starts to becomes a negative factor in the plants growth potential. In other words, I think you can transplant a cannabis seedling that has been pregrown up to about 40 days with out any serious transplant shock or growth delay but after 40 days, there is significant shock and growth delay. Its my belief that if you have 2 plants of the same strain, and one has been pregrown indoors for 60 days, and the other is a 6" seedling, come october, the seedling will always be bigger,finish faster and produce more than the pregrown plant. Ive seen it so many times that it changed my behavior.

Having said all of that. I can start setting my seedlings outdoors for hardening off between the 15th and 20th of April, so I start my seedlings around the 25th of march, making them around 6" tall and 30 days old at transplant. For the 15 - 20 days of indoor growth, I mimic the outdoor daylenght so that there is no photoperiod adjustment.
The seedlings arent root/light stressed, don't have to adjust to a new enviroment and are ready to take off unfettered.

 

[supersonic]

hi...

good thread...

I used to germinate direct in soil or in paper towell then when sprouted put on balcony. That was not very effective, plants could be sprouted early may and put out around june 10th. plants needed 5 weeks to be ready to go home...

In '08 i upgradede to this primitive sistem which works great:




I produced some 20 plants in a month. They were ready to transplant sometime around age of 18 days- size at which i transplant, in around mid may.
Schedule was 16/8 and I noticed a later start of flowering...
So i'll probably go to 15/9 in this year... and i'll have to deal with heat problems as that's how circumstances are in '09...


all the best

 

[Fast_Pine]

For the 15 - 20 days of indoor growth, I mimic the outdoor daylenght so that there is no photoperiod adjustment.
The seedlings arent root/light stressed, don't have to adjust to a new enviroment and are ready to take off unfettered.

At 15-20 days old, the seedlings arent mature enough to go into bloom. No need to match day lengths because they are still so young. When the plant starts to alternate nodes it is then old enough to bloom with decreasing light..I actually feel that one may be able to get a faster growth rate by starting seeds on 24..

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

Where is back country? he needs to amend the outdoor strain guide he started to ask about pre-veg, pre-veg light cycle, and date they went outdoors in the first place!

Thats what the growers notes are for.........

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

......From observation, I am pretty sure I saw clones flowering later than seeds, certain I saw variations of +/- 10 days in identical clones flowering between microclimates, usually the lushest first. For this reason I am growing 100% from seed for my own garden....

Yes, it is a widely known fact that clones can finish a week or two later than the seed grown original mom, the advantage though is that you can pre-evaluate the plants you will be investing time in through the summer, and only grow a group of superstars, rather than hoping and praying that the seeds you planting will result in something you like. Of course, with well stabilized varietys you can get pretty good results from seeds, and if you are simply growing a ton of plants to produce mid-grade outdoor for commercial sale its not as important either.
Since I am growing for personal use, and for sale at top dollar to picky smokers used to high quality, I need to grow the best of the best, this is where the clones come in, the only way to ensure you end product is always up to par.

That said, there are just as many advantages to growing from seed, I tend to find seed grown plants pack on size easier, and are often better able to grow past problems(they seem hardier), and of course seedlings usually harvest earlier. I actually find growing and sexing seedlings to be easier than cloning, but thats just me.

I am now thinking I may grow a few sexed seedlings this year as well..........

 

[headimonster]

silverback - right on - ya know i have found the same things- friends started some in mid feb inside and kept em inside til may, i started mine outside in mid may and i got denser flowers, and bigger yields

 

[scaramanga]

Hey all.

facelift, I'd tread lightly where those starter trays are concerned. I am convinced that crowded roots or a bent tap before sexing = males. I use 16 oz cups for that very reason and prefer 20ozers.

Lazlo, I dont have a fancy timer. I have my phone set to go off and for those couple of weeks i have to manually turn them off and on. It sucks and I wouldnt do it if I didn't see something -from it. But honestly, there is a 30-40 day period in the beginning of the season where every minute requires activity, so I just figure this into the effort.

I just couldnt aggree more with your beliefs about temps. Important in my mind.

BC, Im going to do a batch of clones as well. I do both, start a group of seeds and do clones. I wish I could grow out numerous plants to pick a dandy. Im usually stuck choosing the best of 3 or 4 females. Im going to do some white rhino, sensi star and sour bubble clones this summer. The sour bubbles are in the cooker now.

North, life gets in the way of my growing as well. I wish i could make growing my carrer. Im going to do one of BreederBrads strains this summer and I have some friesland x blueberry seeds that i look at with interest all the time.

Hey chaos. You make an interesting statement about clones flowering later. A great number of breeders and experienced growers will argue all day long that the fastest way to flower any cannabis plant is to wait untill mid to late june, start the seed and it will begin to flower quickly. Their contention is that the plants don't have time to develop a significant amount of auxins which supposedly act to delay flowering. Clones, because of their age, have produced significant amounts of auxins which will impact the finish date according to those who profess this understanding. I am undecided. I have definately seen clones mature sooner than some seed plants, but I just dont know..

Obsessive? I also play music at a low level for my plants during the day. Ive found they enjoy love song instumentals even better than classical. For the nightime I have a little box that kicks on when the lights go out that makes natual sounds. It plays a little number called "warm summers eve" which has crickets and frogs. this makes the plant so happy and Im rewarded with juicy resin!

High SB, I agree with you about those starter trays and root depth versus sexual expression. I read a scientific paper which specifically discussed this very issue. The conclusions of the researchers was that that a tap root depth of 4" or more consistently produced greater female to male ratios. I'll see if I can find the reference material.

About those "fancy" timers you guys were talking about. If you go to Wal-Mart you can pickup a digital timer with about 20 different settings per day. It can be programmed in 1 min increments. This would allow you to program an increasing or decreasing light cycle up to a week in advance; easy to program too. And they are fairly inexpensive ~$15. I've had one controlling a 400 hps for several years with no problems. Just one thing less to worry about.