(Illogical & complicated) Water problem

[stony2]

Hello, good people of this beautiful free world.


I am having a problem with my current grow that I have traced back to water quality / composition. It is quite absurd and illogical to me. It will probably be for you as well; nevertheless, let's try diagnosis, shall we!

I have grown at multiple locations in my "career". I will cite two. At what we will call location 2, I have had massive harvests with picture perfect healthy plants and buds; at the other, where I currently grow, which we will call location 1, plants suffer from deficiencies quasi from day 1.

Environment variables that are the same, or that at least very closely correlate:

- temperature
- air flow
- light
- medium (coco, or more precisely COGR)
- fertilizer (Canna COGR)
- EC (adjusted for base EC)
- ph (I always on average run around 5,8; drain water pH measures closely to tank pH)
- watering intervals & amount (DTW, ~25% drain)
- water circulation pump & air pump
- strains / phenotypes (from clones)


So, the only variable that is changing is tap water composition.
I am lucky to have found values for both addresses from the water provider:

To my eyes, location 1 just has more of everything. Intuitively, one would assume the water at location 2, which is very soft and light in minerals, should lead to deficiencies - no, it's vice versa.

Now, if the verdict is "the more pure the water, the better the growth", naturally the solution would be RO (reverse osmosis).
He's the real mindfuck: that's the first thing I did. The more I mix back the tap water at location 1 with RO water to arrive at a composition similar to location 2, the worse things do yet get! Only about 1/4 RO to 3/4 tap water even seems acceptable.. if I dilute the tap water more than that, it that leads to even bigger problems than I already have.

The symptoms that show themselves, apart from stunted growth / reduced vitality, are that of a calcium and/or phosphorus deficiency.
A calcium deficiency should however be impossible, with water that hard, and in range pH.


Pics:

What do you think, guys? Is there something I overlooked, or are you just as baffled as I am?


Best greetz
Stony

 

[Creeperpark]

When using RO water you must fortify it with Cal-mag first, or you will have problems. Using tap water will leave waste in the root zone when the water evaporates or is used by the plant.

 

[Cvh]

What brand pH meter are you using at both locations and when did you last calibrate it?
The major difference -for me- between the water at the two locations is the different pH value.

Off course you also need to be sure there's enough CalMag as the previous poster said.

 

[Gaussamer]

Soil and hydro will have two different dynamics to this hiccup, would be helpful to know which medium you are doing.

 

[stony2]

I've given the middle finger to this particular problem and gone the way of overkill. I've done multiple laboratory tests to determine exactly what I have at my current location and what I want from the other location, and am currently in the process of recreating the tap water of "Location 2" via clean (RO) water and various additives. This way I can also recreate the water composition I want at any other location I might have to move to in the future. It seems like the only proper long term solution.

 

[CrustyCruz]

Hard water has to be acidified. Carbonates are your enemy. Ph doesn't mean anything. Alkalinity does.

Your not in soil bud. You gotta do the work of the microbes yourself.

 

[dramamine]

It kind of looks like a pathogen to me. Fungal, maybe. Is that possible?

 

[Creeperpark]

If some solute is dissolved in pure water, the solution has fewer free water molecules and the concentration (free energy) of water decreases, reducing its water potential. Hence, all solutions have a lower water potential than pure water; the magnitude of this lowering due to dissolution of a solute is called solute potential or Ψs . Ψs is always negative. The more the solute molecules, the lower (more negative) is the Ψs. For a solution at atmospheric pressure (water pIf a pressure greater than atmospheric pressure is applied to pure water or a solution, its water potential increases. It is equivalent to pumping water from one place to another. Can you think of any system in our body where pressure is built up? Pressure can build up in a plant system when water enters a plant cell due to diffusion causing a pressure built up against the cell wall, it makes the cell turgidotential) Ψw = (solute potential) Ψs this increases the pressure potential. Pressure potential is usually positive, though in plants negative potential or tension in the water column in the xylem plays a major role in water transport up a stem. Pressure potential is denoted as Ψp.... Melvin Calvin Professor of Chemistry at the University of California, Berkeley

 

[Creeperpark]

Tap water has been raped by chemicals designed to block the Cation Exchange in drinking water. The high pH you see above, and in drinking water is there to stop heavy metals from leaching from the water pipes and into the drinking water. If you always start out with Pure Water, you will always have a higher "water potential" and super growth. Any molecule that's out of place will will lower the water potential by blocking the pathway or receptor sites. PURE WATER MATTERS!!

 

[stony2]

Hard water has to be acidified. Carbonates are your enemy. Ph doesn't mean anything. Alkalinity does.

If you read the OP, you would have recognized that I've tried everything from low to high carbonates / alcalinity at the "problem location". Nothing in the spectrum led to the result that I am used to from the other location with different tap water; so that can't be the problem, at least not on its own.
As I've researched and learned in the months since, one cannot make the blanket statement that "carbonates are your enemy". A certain amount of them is required for PH buffering. Carbon hardness is directly related to acid capacity. And you certainly can't make the statement "PH doesn't mean anything".

It kind of looks like a pathogen to me. Fungal, maybe. Is that possible?

Nothing's impossible, but a organic pathogen developing after only days in a quality medium that was cleaned / sterilized during production is about as likely to happen as a lottery win.

Tap water has been raped by chemicals designed to block the Cation Exchange in drinking water. The high pH you see above, and in drinking water is there to stop heavy metals from leaching from the water pipes and into the drinking water. If you always start out with Pure Water, you will always have a higher "water potential" and super growth. Any molecule that's out of place will will lower the water potential by blocking the pathway or receptor sites. PURE WATER MATTERS!!

Except my setup with unfiltered tap water at one of the two locations I described produced perfect results. I suppose they put the good chemicals in that, and the bad ones in the tap water at the other location - right?
What's "pure water" anyway, and where in nature do you find that? Show me the natural water stream or reservoire that has pure H²O. No, there's nothing like "pure water" in nature - there's always a certain amount of chemicals diluted in it. What matters for plant growth is which chemicals in which amounts / proportions.

 

[stony2]

What brand pH meter are you using at both locations and when did you last calibrate it?
The major difference -for me- between the water at the two locations is the different pH value.

pH/EC meter and calibration intervals are one of the variables that didn't change between locations. But to satisfy curiosity, it's a Bluelab Guardian Monitor, calibrated as the manual dictates.

The pH of the two tap waters isn't insignificant, but mind you, it has to be corrected to 5,5 - 6,2 for coco / COGR either way. Also mind that the tap water at location 1 has about 5 times the total chemicals diluted in it (as indicated by EC), three times the total hardness, 5x the magnesium, 25x the sulfate of the other location, etc. I assume the culprit lies there. Which one(s) in which combination, that's the prize question.

Anyway, as stated in post #5, the only direct path to success I've seen is to recreate the tap water of the location that has proven to work.. Empirical / trial & error process, starting out with RO water, then re-enriching with the required chemicals. Professional chemical laboratory tests for each step. I've arrived at almost the values of the tap water at location 2 (not exactly, since the RO doesn't create 100% clean H²O), and I am currently testing my "mix" on a grow.

 

[delta9nxs]

tap water loc 1 at 550 ppm .5 conversion is liquid rock. it would take a specially formulated custom nutrient to grow with it. you are obviously in a location with extensive limestone deposits the surface water must filter through as it moves to the water table. if you have any Sulphur smell or rust stains on the plumbing you will have trouble with that too.

your location 2 at 120ppm is just borderline water quality too.

you don't need to "recreate" the precise chemical ratio of site 2. it's probably not good enough to emulate.

i would get the ro filter and the right nutrient formula for ro or distilled water.

but if you want to start with some mineral content in the water just mix your tap water back into the ro water to get the ppm you desire. i would say no more than about 50-75 ppm though.

also, it sounds like a well site to me and maybe you or someone before you installed a water softener to get the hardness down. if so, that will inject sodium into the water which could be exacerbating the situation.

 

[f-e]

Watering it down, makes it worse?

I wonder if chlorine is high. Quite a few chlorides have been made. Perhaps free chlorine makes use of the free space the RO mixing offers, and converts calcium as a preference over magnesium. For there is a high Mg as ratio's of tap go. Ca loss to chloride production, while Mg becomes dominant. It seems possible, but it's clutching at straws. Chloride poisoning tends to take the sides of leaves. Sodium, which is unlisted, takes leaves from the tip. Otherwise both look similar. We could be looking at that, with calcium deficiency.

It looks a bit pH like. General hardness can. It's not that hard though.


I liked cogr, but don't see it now. Good drainage. Ideal for us.

Edit: If they are using a lot of fluoride, it's because of stuff growing in there. It's not a great sign.
The pics are confusing. I have no real answer. More ideas, but no answers. Mild poisoning can come from many places, and show in many ways.

The outcome of your 100% RO use will be very telling.

 

[Oysters]

Good to see you still exacerbating the situation. Been using the chips-n-fiber. Thanks.

 

[stony2]

Both sites are tap water, not well water.

Chloride values are listed for both sites.

I have tried pure RO as a base before at various location. It never works well with COGR.

As announced in post #5 I have since tried to recreate the water at location 2. Basically what I did was use 90% RO, 10% tap water from location 1, and then CalMag to get Calcium and Magnesium to the desired level.
The results, according to professional lab test, were pH 6,5, EC 0,4, total hardness 10, carbon hardness 3, nitrate 170 (high because the Canna CalMag has some N fertilizer in it), potassium 3,8, calcium 45, magnesium 14, natrium 7,6, chloride 9, sulfate 13. So, not completely analogous to location 2, but mostly close.
Improvement? Absolutely none. Still massive problems.

I have since given the middle finger to this problem again and moved to soil. Seriously, fuck this shit. I can't become a chemical scientist just for plants to not die at random when with an only slightly different water composition they are uniformly vital.

Here's a pic from the early flowering phase. These are actually three soils - last row Bio Bizz All Mix, middle row Plagron Grow Mix, front row Canna Terra Professional. Many different strains. They're all doing great.. well, except the very right bottom two that didn't make the transition from COGR; ignore those.
I water with mostly RO, because that's what plants get in nature - rain water is almost pure H²O. Fertilizer as needed (not during the first several weeks, since those soils are pre-fertilized).

Thanks to all trying to help. I would have loved to solve this problem directly. But the important thing is that plants are growing again!