I need some pro tips for runoff EC. (Not first grower)

[Vancho]

Hello everyone!
I think its my 12th grow so far, I've been trough many deficiencies, bugs, fungus and other enviromental problems.
I have a situation that confuses me and feeling in a dead-end. Maybe some experienced growers can help me.

Before the pictures, some background: I have my first indoor where i grew for 3 years and a half. Plants are doing great, growing in klassman ts3 + 30% perlite, 7 liter pots with powder feeding full pack for veg/flower, EC+pH measurements around 800 μS/cm for early veg ----> 2200 μS/cm around week 6 of flowering and then root cleanup for 2 weeks (tap water is pretty good, with 230 μS/cm and pH 7.0). pH is always around 6.0 with some oscilation up and down to 5.6 and 6.5. The lights are COB leds (1.5m2 with 900w of those chips, 18x50w, 10 x 6000K + 8 full spectrum). VPD in optimal range for each stage, since I have HR+Temp under control. Weed coming from there is quite beautiful.
The plants are all regular, feminized, mixed between Sweed labs, Dutch passion and R-kiem seeds.

So, the problem here is the new indoor I recently installed.
The setup is almost the same as the other, it's a 80x80cm tent and I changed the light. I got a level-up light (https://omnigro.com.ar/producto/proled-550d-dimerizable-20-220w/). Sorry it's in spanish since I'm from Argentina. 220W, Ppfd 602 moles/m2/s on a 80x80cm surface. Spectrum 380 -780nm – 3500k with far red and no UVA/B. CRI 85%.
The plants are going down, and I'm kinda lost.
With the same setup except for the light, one indoor is doing great, the other is not.
In this new indoor I have 5 plants from Sensi seeds + Dutch passion, started from seeds bought in Barcelona. They are in week 3 of flowering. 2 weeks ago (first week of flowering), the runoff water EC was 1200-1600 μS/cm and pH 6.4, when I realized some deficiencies (by the way I usually dont add any nute the first week of flower, to give them some time to uptake the grow nutes). I tought that EC was okay but nut too high so added half the dose of powder feeding (hybrids + calcium) to see if they recover, around 1000μS/cm . They did not recover, the went the opposite way.
Today I checked again the runoff. EC was 1450-1650 μS/cm and pH 6.3-6.5.
Pictures below

My first thought since the only diference with the other indoor doing great is the light, is that i'm underfeeding with the plants under this new light. Since VPD is optimal, pH is okay, maybe the plants are asking way more EC to grow properly than the other grow. I didn't do any big feeding yet cause i'm afraid it could damage the plants even more with a nute lockout.

Sorry for the long post. I read you.
Thanks in advance

 

[Loc Dog]

There is a sticky in infirmary by MyNameStitch that covers deficiencies. If runoff is higher or ph up or down from feed there is a problem (I only know coir which is considered hydro) with lockout from PH or too much other nutrients.

https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/Nutrient_Chart2.gif

 

[Creeperpark]

When you let the plant have only water for a few days after a constant feed it can brake the nutrient sequence. When the sequence is broken it can be hard to regain the right order of nutrients again. I've done it many times not knowing what I did. Most people double the amount of nutrients trying to find the right sequence and only cause a lockout from the extra fertilizer. . So giving extra fertilizer doesn't fix it.

 

[Brother Nature]

I'd second the above comment as I had the same issue when recently moving back to soil from coco. I thought it might be the LED's, environment, nutes, etc... but it was my watering technique. I'd generally feed 1.8ec at 6.2-7.0ph one feed, then just straight water at .3ec and 7.3ph. My runs weren't bad, but I definitely saw some deficiencies that I couldn't figure out. This last run I start the feed at 1.2ec and slowly move the ph from 6.2 in veg to 6.8 in flower. I feed this each watering and my plants are significantly happier than they had been. It also showed me which plants needed more feed, though most found that to be the sweet spot. My exact ratios may not be what you need, but starting at a baseline EC and ph that everything likes is a good way to dial the nutes and ph.

I also find soil less forgiving when you fuck up than other methods. In coco or hydro, you see very quickly when you fuck up, but if it's not too bad, you can fix it quick too. In soil, I have found by the time you see the fuck up, you're like 2 weeks behind so the remedy isn't always easy to figure out. Your girls don't look fucked though, you can easily recover.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Hello everyone!
I think its my 12th grow so far, I've been trough many deficiencies, bugs, fungus and other enviromental problems.
I have a situation that confuses me and feeling in a dead-end. Maybe some experienced growers can help me.

Before the pictures, some background: I have my first indoor where i grew for 3 years and a half. Plants are doing great, growing in klassman ts3 + 30% perlite, 7 liter pots with powder feeding full pack for veg/flower, EC+pH measurements around 800 μS/cm for early veg ----> 2200 μS/cm around week 6 of flowering and then root cleanup for 2 weeks (tap water is pretty good, with 230 μS/cm and pH 7.0). pH is always around 6.0 with some oscilation up and down to 5.6 and 6.5. The lights are COB leds (1.5m2 with 900w of those chips, 18x50w, 10 x 6000K + 8 full spectrum). VPD in optimal range for each stage, since I have HR+Temp under control. Weed coming from there is quite beautiful.
The plants are all regular, feminized, mixed between Sweed labs, Dutch passion and R-kiem seeds.

So, the problem here is the new indoor I recently installed.
The setup is almost the same as the other, it's a 80x80cm tent and I changed the light. I got a level-up light (https://omnigro.com.ar/producto/proled-550d-dimerizable-20-220w/). Sorry it's in spanish since I'm from Argentina. 220W, Ppfd 602 moles/m2/s on a 80x80cm surface. Spectrum 380 -780nm – 3500k with far red and no UVA/B. CRI 85%.
The plants are going down, and I'm kinda lost.
With the same setup except for the light, one indoor is doing great, the other is not.
In this new indoor I have 5 plants from Sensi seeds + Dutch passion, started from seeds bought in Barcelona. They are in week 3 of flowering. 2 weeks ago (first week of flowering), the runoff water EC was 1200-1600 μS/cm and pH 6.4, when I realized some deficiencies (by the way I usually dont add any nute the first week of flower, to give them some time to uptake the grow nutes). I tought that EC was okay but nut too high so added half the dose of powder feeding (hybrids + calcium) to see if they recover, around 1000μS/cm . They did not recover, the went the opposite way.
Today I checked again the runoff. EC was 1450-1650 μS/cm and pH 6.3-6.5.
Pictures below

View attachment 18858427
View attachment 18858428 View attachment 18858429
View attachment 18858430

My first thought since the only diference with the other indoor doing great is the light, is that i'm underfeeding with the plants under this new light. Since VPD is optimal, pH is okay, maybe the plants are asking way more EC to grow properly than the other grow. I didn't do any big feeding yet cause i'm afraid it could damage the plants even more with a nute lockout.

Sorry for the long post. I read you.
Thanks in advance

I don't know how tall the plants are supposed to grow, however 1 gallon for 1 foot of expected height is the minimum in soil/coco coir growing. 7 liters is barely 2 gallons.

So if the package says that a plant grows to 1.5 meters (5 feet), then you should use a 20 liter (5 gallon) container.

A bigger container will allow for more root growth, and better uptake of nutrients and at lower concentrations.

The plants themselves are showing some Phosphorus and Potassium deficiency or lockout, which is to be expected in flowering.

 

[Loc Dog]

I don't know how tall the plants are supposed to grow, however 1 gallon for 1 foot of expected height is the minimum in soil/coco coir growing. 7 liters is barely 2 gallons.

So if the package says that a plant grows to 1.5 meters (5 feet), then you should use a 20 liter (5 gallon) container.

A bigger container will allow for more root growth, and better uptake of nutrients and at lower concentrations.

The plants themselves are showing some Phosphorus and Potassium deficiency or lockout, which is to be expected in flowering.

Would coco in airpot require less size than soil? I grow about 2 feet then SCROG.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Would coco in airpot require less size than soil? I grow about 2 feet then SCROG.

I'd say coco is the same as soil in this respect.

There is a massive expansion of the rootsystem when flower set starts. That's why there has to be higher phosphorous at the start of flowering. When calyx expansion sets in, this shifts to a need for potassium.

The thing is that soil and coco are not the same as hydro, where the roots can just grow into water and expand forever. In soil and coco, root space is limited, and can easily become the limiting factor.

And remember, you can even plant cannabis in the ground, where root space is limited only by the next plant's root system.

 

[Broggemann]

Runoff way too low.
Get in the 4-6 EC range and be happy.

 

[Creeperpark]

Believe it or not, the opposite is the best way I have found to bring a plant back from a nutrient sequence being broken. Instead of giving a high EC, I use a low ppm with every watering. I use the low ppm feed water to flush out the old EC and stabilize the sequence again. The plant is given a complete feed with every watering and it will come back when your ppm drops to about 800.

 

[Ca++]

@TanzanianMagic
Where you are getting these pot volumes from?
I recently got 4.5oz from a liter of coco. As it's a hydro like grow, the roots don't have to look for food, you take it to them. With regular dry back, even a very root bound pot gets a decent exchange, every couple of hours when you feed.
That was outstanding, but I would readily expect 3oz in a 5" pot (1Liter). Unusually, I will do the same in soil. Treating it as hydro, with the feeds adjusted where soil feeds often lack certain things. I understand in organic, you use a lot of soil, and must root through it to get to the food. An organic grow, to the purest, means no bottles, just good soil. Like a plant in the wild. So that pot must hold everything the plant will need for the cycle. With little more than a mulch added.
This is quite a range of styles. From the commonly seen 2L square Stim pots, fed 3 ties a day with coco. Through to the larger soil pots used by organic purists. Watered every 3 days.
There just isn't a plant height vs container size statement, that can cover all soil and coco grows. I have seen ministries (in Australia) talk about plant height vs pot height, with a 2.5:1 ratio. So I know there are some crazy notions out there, coming from people we should be able to trust.
I don't think I have ever used anybodies gallon, per foot of plant height. To me, it doesn't sound workable. A 1 foot plant in coco, could drown in in a gallon tub. A 3 foot plant doesn't need 3 times the pot space, as plants get wider as they get taller. That morphology things is another big clue why the height vs volume thing doesn't work. You could be growing jack n the bean stalk, or a nice bushy Afghan. Very different amounts of plant matter, per foot of height.


I would guide people towards 4 plants per meter, with 2 gallon of coco/compost per plant, to feed just once a day. Though there are many variables, my expectation there is 500g+ from typical 8-9 week plants. If you can do 650g then you might need closer to 3 gallon per plant, to hold a days water.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

@TanzanianMagic
Where you are getting these pot volumes from?
I recently got 4.5oz from a liter of coco. As it's a hydro like grow, the roots don't have to look for food, you take it to them. With regular dry back, even a very root bound pot gets a decent exchange, every couple of hours when you feed.
That was outstanding, but I would readily expect 3oz in a 5" pot (1Liter). Unusually, I will do the same in soil. Treating it as hydro, with the feeds adjusted where soil feeds often lack certain things. I understand in organic, you use a lot of soil, and must root through it to get to the food. An organic grow, to the purest, means no bottles, just good soil. Like a plant in the wild. So that pot must hold everything the plant will need for the cycle. With little more than a mulch added.
This is quite a range of styles. From the commonly seen 2L square Stim pots, fed 3 ties a day with coco. Through to the larger soil pots used by organic purists. Watered every 3 days.
There just isn't a plant height vs container size statement, that can cover all soil and coco grows. I have seen ministries (in Australia) talk about plant height vs pot height, with a 2.5:1 ratio. So I know there are some crazy notions out there, coming from people we should be able to trust.
I don't think I have ever used anybodies gallon, per foot of plant height. To me, it doesn't sound workable. A 1 foot plant in coco, could drown in in a gallon tub. A 3 foot plant doesn't need 3 times the pot space, as plants get wider as they get taller. That morphology things is another big clue why the height vs volume thing doesn't work. You could be growing jack n the bean stalk, or a nice bushy Afghan. Very different amounts of plant matter, per foot of height.


I would guide people towards 4 plants per meter, with 2 gallon of coco/compost per plant, to feed just once a day. Though there are many variables, my expectation there is 500g+ from typical 8-9 week plants. If you can do 650g then you might need closer to 3 gallon per plant, to hold a days water.

All I remember is that 1 gallon/foot is a minimum requirement - if you want to grow without nutrient deficiencies, the plant going rootbound, etc. Or just having to water/feed too often. Less frequent watering/feeding also creates more stability for the plant.

 

[Vancho]

I'd second the above comment as I had the same issue when recently moving back to soil from coco. I thought it might be the LED's, environment, nutes, etc... but it was my watering technique. I'd generally feed 1.8ec at 6.2-7.0ph one feed, then just straight water at .3ec and 7.3ph. My runs weren't bad, but I definitely saw some deficiencies that I couldn't figure out. This last run I start the feed at 1.2ec and slowly move the ph from 6.2 in veg to 6.8 in flower. I feed this each watering and my plants are significantly happier than they had been. It also showed me which plants needed more feed, though most found that to be the sweet spot. My exact ratios may not be what you need, but starting at a baseline EC and ph that everything likes is a good way to dial the nutes and ph.

I also find soil less forgiving when you fuck up than other methods. In coco or hydro, you see very quickly when you fuck up, but if it's not too bad, you can fix it quick too. In soil, I have found by the time you see the fuck up, you're like 2 weeks behind so the remedy isn't always easy to figure out. Your girls don't look fucked though, you can easily recover.

I think i may have the same situation. Question: how do you raise your pH in soil? since it is already rooted and it owns components that buffers the pH to an specific range (in my case 6.3-6.5).

And regarding nutes, I added 1100 microsiemens 2 weeks ago, now water, and the next I will increase the dose.

One other thing. I'm using klassman TS3 (soil mix), and straight from the bag, the soil EC is around 2500 microsiemens. So I'm thinking that my soil is now way lower than the starting point in my crop.

 

[Ca++]

All I remember is that 1 gallon/foot is a minimum requirement - if you want to grow without nutrient deficiencies, the plant going rootbound, etc. Or just having to water/feed too often. Less frequent watering/feeding also creates more stability for the plant.

The demands of LED have made a few growers move to bigger root spaces. One small coco pot grower now uses 5" rockwool blocks. Coco's constant conditioning demand couldn't be met, while also meeting the plants demands. I forget their name, but a big bank backed operation. Others have spoke of the extra oxygen needed to keep up with 1000umol. Which regular drybacks in an open medium like rockwool can provide. Though it aeroponics really making a comeback. Where a decent size cut can be a 600mm plant in a week. Which is barely believable with experience of other methods. Then it's testing 5 - 8% stronger when done.
While this seems a little off topic for pot sizing, the time between watering in any substrate is a playing in oxygen. The overlooked element plants need in abundance

 

[Brother Nature]

I think i may have the same situation. Question: how do you raise your pH in soil? since it is already rooted and it owns components that buffers the pH to an specific range (in my case 6.3-6.5).

And regarding nutes, I added 1100 microsiemens 2 weeks ago, now water, and the next I will increase the dose.

One other thing. I'm using klassman TS3 (soil mix), and straight from the bag, the soil EC is around 2500 microsiemens. So I'm thinking that my soil is now way lower than the starting point in my crop.

I tried a number of things, some raised the soil PH, but I won't recommend them because the rise was too quick and caused lock outs of other nutrients. I bought a soil PH meter and got it right from the start in the next run. I also repot into larger pots a week from flower, from 10L pots into 15L or 18L pots. I found that has made the biggest difference as sometimes I have to keep my veg plants in veg longer than 8 weeks and they get pretty root bound. They really like the fresh soil and root space. Cannabis definitely uses the nutes in potting mixes very quick too. I find, no matter the mix, I'll need to feed after 4 weeks from the seedling stage if I want vigorous growth

 

[gmanwho]

I personally do not think its a lock out. and Possibly from lack of food. Alot of valid points above.

first reason i believe it is not a lockout is vancho pictures show good pistol development still taking place. the plant is still very active. whenever i get a lockout in my garden, usually the pistols are the first thing to orange up an dry out. If or when things are corrected, new pistol development begins again.

vancho is growing in klassman ts3. a quick search shows that it is straight sphagnum peat moss. which is supposed to be more towards neutral ph. also is it possible some of his run off EC is from the peat leeching? Still very low nutrient i think for led. and not enough food.

quickly judging the depth of the black tray to the canopy, seems like plants arent to big / tall. Plant size doesnt seem to large from my point of view

But i do notice something in picture 2 of the original post. bottom right, and up a little towards the middle of photo shows a gap in canopy. In that gap the Stalks, stems, or petioles, are showing some possible dead material. off chance its string from training, not sure. but it looks tan and or pink ,and or a possible dead area. maybe a bacterial or fungal growth causing some issues. fusarium is the first thing comes to mind when i see that area.

I do think i see spider mite damage in pic 2 and 3

I may have missed it, but no mention on watering technique / schedule , dry downs. possibly over water adding to the situation?

 

[Creeperpark]

I personally do not think its a lock out. and Possibly from lack of food. Alot of valid points above.

first reason i believe it is not a lockout is vancho pictures show good pistol development still taking place. the plant is still very active. whenever i get a lockout in my garden, usually the pistols are the first thing to orange up an dry out. If or when things are corrected, new pistol development begins again.

vancho is growing in klassman ts3. a quick search shows that it is straight sphagnum peat moss. which is supposed to be more towards neutral ph. also is it possible some of his run off EC is from the peat leeching? Still very low nutrient i think for led. and not enough food.

quickly judging the depth of the black tray to the canopy, seems like plants arent to big / tall. Plant size doesnt seem to large from my point of view

But i do notice something in picture 2 of the original post. bottom right, and up a little towards the middle of photo shows a gap in canopy. In that gap the Stalks, stems, or petioles, are showing some possible dead material. off chance its string from training, not sure. but it looks tan and or pink ,and or a possible dead area. maybe a bacterial or fungal growth causing some issues. fusarium is the first thing comes to mind when i see that area.

I do think i see spider mite damage in pic 2 and 3

I may have missed it, but no mention on watering technique / schedule , dry downs. possibly over water adding to the situation?

The runoff EC was 1450-1650 μS/cm and pH 6.3-6.5 would that be too low?

 

[gmanwho]

The runoff EC was 1450-1650 μS/cm and pH 6.3-6.5 would that be too low?

hey, post 12 says that his ec is 2.5 straight from bag. post 1 says his tap is 0.23, so i would say his run off is lacking nutrients. ph correct but ec is low.

im not really sure if anyone grows cannabis in straight peat moss. It is usually used as a soil conditioner. Since peat retains high levels of water, Also leading me to believe over saturation could be a part of the issues.

post 12 , does Straight from the bag means he flushed his 0.23 water thru to get his 2.5 ec runoff reading? assuming it is, since its part of the original thread topic.

so 0.23 water ec minus 2.5 runoff, is a 2.27 leech from the peat. I dont think we have any analysis what contributes to that 2.27 from the peat. most likely not much to contribute significantly nutrient wise. maybe someone who knows peat better can weigh in.

so the 1450-1650 1.4-1.65 runoff quoted, is now actually lower then his straight from bag runoff.

0.23 in the water is acceptable, if we knew what the 0.23 was actually. something i realize now, if that 0.23 is high or partially sodium this could be an issue as well. If i remember correctly the Na threshold for plants was around 50ppm, his water is 115ppm at 5 conversion. So high sodium could be an issue as well. Tap usually contains chloride as well

 

[Creeperpark]

I do peat, "ProMix hp", and I don't use any of those numbers. In flowering I only use a low 300 ppm or .3 EC of fertilizer with every watering. The average runoff is only 800ppm or .8 EC. Put Creeper is creeping again. in the search box above, you will see what Im talking about.

 

[Creeperpark]

There's no need to use large amounts of fertilizer when you have a constant feed using peat mixes. When the EC is steady the plant will adapt and grow fast using only a small amount of fertilizer. Steady EC that's consistent on a daily basis given to the plants is what plants adapt to easily. Not a high EC full of molecules that are mixed up given one day a week. The nutrient sequence is what matters more and not the quantity of nutrients. Those high numbers on the bottles are misleading and can fool newcomers using peat mixes.

 

[Creeperpark]

Another good example of growing super plants thriving on a low ppm feed is "Green Rush Farms." It's not peat but it's the same principle using a low ppm to maintain the nutrient sequence. Check out the Vendor forum and look at their work and log book. He keeps his ppm in the low 300s and his plants are awesome.