I need a DOCTOR !!

[Pirate]

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on?
1 to 2 weeks
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
NO
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...
Mothers in coco, bloomers in Aeroponic / NFT Hybrid
What STRAIN are you growing?
Speed Queen, Satori, OG Kush, AK47
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
Problem is in all my plants. Those from seed and clones
What is the age of your plants?
From 1.5 years to 1 week
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
(1 month for coco mothers, 1 week to 50 days for bloomers
How tall are the plants?
1 to 3 foot
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
ALL phases
What Technique are you using?
????
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
Aeroponic for bloomers and coco for others. ONLY mothers are in coco. everything lese is in DWC or Aero
What is the Water temperature?
68 to 72 range
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
WHITE no slime
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
GH micro/bloom Lucas Formula
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
Lucas formula 8/16 or 5/10
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
coc = 1 time per day, Aero is 24/7
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
Repeat question, see above
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?Unrelated
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
Micro...mix then bloom. NO aditives
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
1000 for mothers under 800 watts and 1300 for Bloomers under 1800 watts per table (3 600s)
What is the pH of the "Tank"?
6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
YES, just checked it
When was your last watering?
Unrelated
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
usually every 10 days.
What is the distance to the canopy?
this is not heat burn
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
40 to 50% in bloom
What is the canopy temperature?
72 at night and up to 82* with lights on
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Running when lights are on. Intake to outlet. NO Filters
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
NO....over the tops
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
Middle ground.......140 ppm from tap
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Tap
Are you using water from a water softener?
NO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
all the time, Unrelated
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
YES and I thought this might be part of it.But i wille xplain why not later. I was battling Powdery Mildew and used Green Cure a couple times to no avail. I did not have this problem unit AFTER I used the green cure 2 weeks ago.Then I used Dutch Masters Zone/penetrate and that wiped out the PM.
Are plant's infected with pest's
Not recently

OK as stated above:
I had Powdery Mildew. Been fighting it for months. I used a product called GREEN CURE but it didn't really help. (Temporary at best). PM would come right back within days. (yes i know its in the plant cells)
Then I read on here about using Dutch masters ZONE and Penatrator. Bamm !! Gone.Have not seen ANY leaf mold in days. (yes I know its still in the plant) I will shoot itaginn in 2 days and repeat once a week for a month or so.

Anyway, here are some photos of the problem I am having now. I have never seen this in my garden before and it seems to be spreading. It looks like a Phosphorus deficiency but I know that is not it. Mostly I figure stuff out on my own but since this is in every plant from mothers to clones to bloomers I thought I better get a handle on it early.

The stems of the FAN leaves are rubbery. The leaf eventually looks as though it has Botritys but the bud and bud leaves are unaffected. Its hitting all lower fans....most are to low for it to be light burn. It seems to grow in the leaf from the stem of the plant and works its away outward. It is not Nute Burn. The leaf stay rubbery and moist and will drop off the plant at the slightest touch. All lower fan leaves are dropping off on their own and it seems to be moving UP the plants. It does not seem to be in the upper leaves at all, not even the fans. Not yet at least. The batch that suffers the most is within 1 week of harvest. Again......buds are unaffected but I am afraid the if left unchecked it will spread to other tables in my perpetual, every 2 week harvest SOG set up. Some tables in bloom are unaffected right now.

These photos are in a progressive order as the problem occures

First sign its in the leaf:

And again

Another leaf from a clone with a little more infection in it:

Progresses to look like this within 1 or 2 days:

Again. This is rubbery. Not brittle as if dead leaf matter:

Still rubbery

Rubbery but will eventually turn crips within another day.

This whole process might take about 3 or 4 days from the time the leaf shows the spots till its off the plant. And more and more leaves are getting infected.

I don't think its the green cure since I never sprayed the clones with it. It was today that I transferred clones to Pre-Flower when I noticed it it in them, that I knew there was something major going on. So......Here I am looking for help.

HELP !! Somebody get me a doctor !!!!

 

[Rusty Trichome]

Nice troubleshooting form y'all have here.
Have you been spraying the PM cures, and then later sprayed anything to cure the new symptoms? Since you mention the roots looking fine, and no changes to nutes and additives, looks like it could be clogged pores preventing aspiration? (moisture or products constantly on the leaves, restricting plants ability to breathe and/or release excess moisture) Do the cola's have this problem, or is it away from the lights and fans? Is the problem showing mostly on the interior leaves, exterior leaves, upper leaves, lower leaves...or all of 'em?

 

[Pirate]

All on lower leaves. Yes I sprayed multiple times but it is infecting plants I did not spray. Buds are not effected. Only lower fans at this time.

Yes they do have a good questionnaire for posting with. the only problem wit it is.........Most don't use it.

Thanks

 

[Rusty Trichome]

Hmmm...buds unaffected, healthy roots, no signs of ph drift, no changes in nutes or additives, sans the PM cures, (after which, this started) definate neckrosis on lower leaves, and other plants...is there a fan moving the air around the plants bases, as well as the tops? (stagnant, humid air collecting at base?)
How's the new growth in affected zones?

Sorry...wife just got back from the doctor...gotta run.

 

[Pirate]

Hmmm...buds unaffected, healthy roots, no signs of ph drift, no changes in nutes or additives, sans the PM cures, (after which, this started) definate neckrosis on lower leaves, and other plants...is there a fan moving the air around the plants bases, as well as the tops? (stagnant, humid air collecting at base?)
How's the new growth in affected zones?

Sorry...wife just got back from the doctor...gotta run.

Air circulation is good throughout the rooms. no stagnant areas. Keep in mind, this is all over my rooms and I have 3 of em. Check my journal and you'll see my set up. Its not just one room effected. All environmental conditions are on par with a good grow. All nutes and rezes are good. Not a PH or PPM problem. It has to be a disease of some sort. I just don't know what and what to treat it with.

New Growth is unaffected. Healthy and green.

Does Powdery Mildew eventually do this to a crop maybe?

 

[HeadyPete]

Hey Pirate, sorry to see you are having problems....

Lower your ph to 5.7 slowly and gradually over a week....This happens to me when the ph gets too high. The minerals from your tap water will push the ph up over time in your media.

PM is from too low temps and too high humidity....you know what to do from there....

All the best bud!

 

[Pirate]

Hey Pirate, sorry to see you are having problems....

Lower your ph to 5.7 slowly and gradually over a week....This happens to me when the ph gets too high. The minerals from your tap water will push the ph up over time in your media.

PM is from too low temps and too high humidity....you know what to do from there....

All the best bud!

My ph never gets high though. I am on those kinds of things like stink on shit. I change my rez on a regular bases and flush fairly often. Plus, the aeroponics has no medium.

I did have high humidity a couple weeks ago because my dehumidifier sucked. That's when the PM reared its ugly head. I went out and bought a top notch unit and that's been good for over 2 weeks. I've been running in the 40 to 45% range for about 10 days. My temperature's never go below 70 at night and recently I've kept it at 72 to 75 at night to help fight the PM.

I'm stumped on this one.

Thanks. I appreciate any input.

 

[pokerfish]

I have foliar sprayed products to kill bugs & fungus... nearly every time, esp w mixed at full strength & applied with the light on, create leaf burn just like the pics you posted. Just like it (period)- soft necrotic spots that seems to traverse leaf sections. The more standing water left on the leaves @ application, the worse the die back.

Phytotoxicity is my best guess, but you listed that this is effecting untreated leaves...??? Honestly, it looks what I stated above & if you aren't finding any other logical reason...?

Physan 20, @1/4 strength, does the same thing on new cuttings if applied more than once, just an example. Zone probably uses chemicals similar to Physan, so... btw, any of the DM products, when used @ f/s, will burn your plants. Fig you knew this already, but jic... Best.

 

[pokerfish]

Afterthought... penetrator has a mix of nutrient salts. The combo of this with a disinfectant type product will certainly add to phytoxicity. I would definitely rec cutting the Pen out of your foliar treatment as such. Also, jic, Pen & Gold with mj should be mixed @ 1/4-1/3 as listed on label, lest you want to feed 700+ppm on the leaves, which will curl the shit out them.

 

[Rusty Trichome]

Sorry, a couple more questions...
What was the original cause of the powdery mildew? How long did it go before treatments? Are you sure you didn't foliar spray the whole house with a bad mix of additives/remedies? Did you properly adjust the ph of the pm treatments before spraying? Have you sprayed anything on all of the plants in the house? When was the last time you calibrated/sterilized your equipment? I don't think I've ever seen dead spores doing further damage.

Pokerfish: He said some of the plants in other rooms didn't recieve treatments. My initial reaction was root rot, but he mentioned the healtthy roots, and no indications on the buds...but if it's affecting all rooms, some of which were not sprayed with the PM treatments...I'm beginning to wonder...

It seems to me that it has to be either overwatering, (root rot/stress) a consistent foliar soaking, or some product that wasn't rinsed-off clogging the pores. (salts from the PM treatments...?)

Hmmm...if you were to foliar the plants (even with plain, ph'd water) a few times a day, the dripping action would keep the lower branches consistently moist, possibly causing the neckrosis.

 

[pokerfish]

It just seems to much of a coincidence in timing with the foliar treatments. For me, the similarity between what I've done & the pics is tremendous. I've also had a delay in necrosis... 4 or 5 days if recalling properly. I've mostly given up on foliar treatments, though place exists. My guess, & so often am i wrong..., is that the other rooms got foliar treatments as well, though no PM actually there. From info given, this still poss as he nvr said no other foliar trtmts were in use...?

 

[Rusty Trichome]

It seems likely.

 

[Pirate]

I really appreciate the time and concern you guys (or girls) have shown. All advice and suggestions are being considered as possibilities.

Here is what I am thinking:
After further investigation........and after seeing the progression as of today. The problem is far worst on the table I treated the most. I'm really leaning towards the Foliar sprays as the culprit. (MY OWN FAULT) The table nearing harvest was the one I concentrated on trying to make sure I didn't lose weight by getting bud rot or whatever from the PM. The other tables in bloom show the same symptoms but not near as bad as that table. Again......That table received the most treatment for PM and is by far the worst. Fortunately this is getting the cut in 2 or 3 days and I could cut em down now if I wanted to. I just prefer to cut on weekends. The buds are unaffected.

I might be seeing things in the veg room because it does appear as though its ONLY on the treated plants. (my bad) I was seeing this problem all over the garden (and its pretty bad) so every spot, leaf tip burn or yellowing even though minor in some areas was being diagnosed as the same problem. I don't think it is now. After really scoping it out this morning............I believe it is the treated plants only.

I created a deadly concoction

Here is what I did to screw it up so we have a record for future readers:

1) Sprayed Green Cure every couple of days for 2 weeks. Green Cure is similar to Baking powder and raises that PH of the leaf so PM cannot grow
PM was not cured so I kept spraying right up until I...............>

2) Popped a can of Dr. Doom Fogger within a day of the last spray of Green Cure to knock out some bugs (no I am not infested) Just a few and wanted to keep them out)

3) Still fighting the PM and within a few days of the Green Cure spray & the DR. Doom pesticide fogger, I foliar fed with Dutch Masters ZONE+Penatrator. (10 mills per gallon of zone as suggested on another thread)

I never foliar fed anything before so I never thought to PH the mixes.

A couple days later is when all this started. Like I said. The treatments were the first thing I thought of as the culprit but just wasn't sure since I saw some bad leaf in other areas. The fear in my mind played tricks on me. IT was the sprays........ I am sure now.

I will attempt to fix by:
Flushing my rezes with some final flush to break whatever bonds are in the plant from the foliar sprays.
Spray some PH corrected water on the plants to rinse the shit off. ( I do not spray when lights are on. Usually an hour or so before they come on)
Not combine treatments of anything kind in the future.

You help has been great and it really helped me think it through. As they say.........Three heads are better than one.

I haven't screwed up this bad in quite some time. I was due for a self caused issue...............to keep me humble.

I'll post back when Its fixed just to finalize this thread.

Thanks guys !!

 

[Gilligan'sIsle]

Dr Doom

Dr Doom

Well I am sorry for your problems.

I had a very similar situation after I bombed my room. I am convinced it was just too much for my space, the concentration of fog was too high.

I lost a whole room (perpetual) and never went back to the bombs. The fog eventually killed all of the exposed plant material, and for a bit the new growth looked fine.

Hope your results are a damn site better than I had here on the island.

Gilligan

 

[Pirate]

Sup Gilligan?
Sorry about the island problems.

I have used the Bombs many times without problems. In fact, I love me. Easy and effective. I believe it was the combination of all treatments put together that did me in.

 

[Gilligan'sIsle]

Thank you...

Thank you...

Thank you for your kind words about the Island.

I am happy to report that the foliage on the Island is green (and purple) and doing well now.

I hope and wish the same for you as well any good pirate, privateer, or CyberSea Captin.

Gilligan

 

[Rusty Trichome]

Hope it turns out ok, let us know. Good luck with 'em.

Since some folks have their fans on the same timer as their lights, foliar spraying with the lights are on (but raised) can help to dry-off the lower foliar zones, too. Or, at least have the fan on a different circuit. Cold, stagnant air doesn't permit evaporation, so the moisture remains on leaves.

 

[10k]

To echo what Rusty is trying to say...

Your problem looks fungal. I know you have a great dehumidifier running, but that's often not good enough to get rid of excessive moisture created during the night time by all the transpiration going on in the foliage, especially that lowest foliage where air flow is somewhat stagnant. Just because your RH seems under control with the new dehumidifier, does NOT mean those lowest most poorly lit leaves are drying off and not backfeeding all that transpired wetness.

This is where constant air movement at night time is most important in a tightly spaced enclosed grow space. Get that air moving below the canopy full time when the room(s) are in darkness.

hth,
10k

 

[Pirate]

To echo what Rusty is trying to say...

Your problem looks fungal. I know you have a great dehumidifier running, but that's often not good enough to get rid of excessive moisture created during the night time by all the transpiration going on in the foliage, especially that lowest foliage where air flow is somewhat stagnant. Just because your RH seems under control with the new dehumidifier, does NOT mean those lowest most poorly lit leaves are drying off and not backfeeding all that transpired wetness.

This is where constant air movement at night time is most important in a tightly spaced enclosed grow space. Get that air moving below the canopy full time when the room(s) are in darkness.

hth,
10k

Great air flow 24/7/365 throughout the rooms. My fans never shut off.

I'm pretty sure I got it down to some sort of burn from the concoction of a fungicide and pesticide combo. Both used With 1 day of each other.

I'll know for sure in 24 hours because I purposely used a few clones to test the theory by overly spraying them with the same mix. I used 4 clones and 4 different mixes to replicate what may have happened. If I get the same look on the leaves...........I'll know what not to do next time.

I'll post the result here so someone else doesn't follow my bad decision.

Now I just hope that one of those clones fries to death by tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[Pirate]

I am updating and closing out this thread.

I have never been happier to see this on my clones:

I wanted to be 100% sure what the heck was causing my problem so I ran a test. I took 4 clones I was willing to trash and sprayed them with misc concoctions to replicate what I may have done to cause the original issue. Those photos are the result.

So we have confirmation that it is the combination of two sprays that did it.
I sprayed 4 clones.
2 with DM Zone + Penetrator = No ill effects. In fact. They are healthier
2 with Green Cure + Zone + Penatrator. Photos above are the result. It took 3 days to show.

Top this off with a Dr. Doom Bug bomb and you've got the final diagnoses.

Ultimately....Pirate (me) was the culprit. I had a brain fart and should have known better than to do something like that. I paniced at the site of so much Powdery Mildew that I allowed myself to do anything to get rid of it. Bad Move.

A big thanks goes out to:
Rustytricholme & 10K
You helped me think it through and re-run what may have happend.

Thanks !!!!!! More rep for ya when it lets me. "I must spread it around"