J
JackTheGrower
Can we do the same thing without buying this product.. ??
RM, are you in soil? When you say root ball was that a shallow root strain or the deep root carrot type strains?
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Hygrozyme for soil/soiless - Great results
- Thread starter jmansweed
- Start date
Can we do the same thing without buying this product.. ??
RM, are you in soil? When you say root ball was that a shallow root strain or the deep root carrot type strains?
Stoned Crow
Member
From the minimal research I did on this, it looks like the same thing we do, but in a bottle. I couldn't find a site that listed the contents or values of the product. From some of the posts in the hydro forum, it looks really expensive, and that's saying something in the hydro forum.
It is OMRI listed, which I don't believe means a whole lot.
Here's a link: http://www.hygrozyme.info/
However, I would like to see how the nute study was conducted and results that jmansweed proposed earlier. Mainly, I would like to know how its made and the contents of it.
jmansweed
Member
You can build microbial life extensively indoors but it's very diffficult to provide enough microbial life indoors to utilize the full potencial of available nutes. I've used compost, beneficial bacteria, fungi and dozens of soil life enhancment products. None of them work as effectively as adding enzymes. Not just Hygrozyme - but any directly active enzymes added to your substrate will increase productivity and substrate health. As you know enzymes within a medium are typically created through amino acid production on a microbial scale. After decomposition, these "microbial" enzymes are absorbed with nutrients back into the micrtobial life developing retained nutreint availabitity. This is a great aspect, however, adding active enzymes is different - enzymes break nutes down and leaves them available in the medium with out any assistance from microbial life. This creates a real nutreint available substrate and eliminates many non beneficial material and gas build up. If you want to brew your own enzymes I suggest you start with yeast fermintation of specific grain ingrediantes. Wheat, barley, rye etc. Don't knock it till you try it man - the stuff has exceptional results.
I'm pretty sure a fresh bottle of em has all the enzymes I could need, at a tiny fraction of the price. And I do ferment much of my kitchen waste. The result is highly active, because it is partly broken down.
So which enzymes are we talking about, why would they do anything for my soil that EM and compost tea don't already do, and how, and are you being paid for your participation here? Are you planning on discussing any topics beyond hygrozyme?
So which enzymes are we talking about, why would they do anything for my soil that EM and compost tea don't already do, and how, and are you being paid for your participation here? Are you planning on discussing any topics beyond hygrozyme?
jmansweed
Member
Check out my thread " Nute Study ". Maryjohn and Stoned Crow - I'm just sharing info here - It's merely my opinion. I test dozens of items and post about them frequently. You guy's are misunderstanding whats happening here any way. Your composting methods are adding microbial life which then develops enzymes to eventually provide nutes to the plant. Adding active, isolated enzymes decompose the nutrients and then the plant absorbs them directly. Microbial life easily dies off indoors. This is why we add it so often. Hygrozyme decomposes nutes with no asistance from microbial life. It is a different method of developing a more nutreint available substrate. You guys are talking about adding active microbial life. I completly agree it's a highly effective way of feeding plants but it's not what Hygrozyme is or does. And No MaryJohn - I only plan on talking about Hygrozyme - specifically in a thread titled "Hygrozyme for soil/soiless".
Sir, you make less sense every post. The reason everyone is suspicious is that you avoid all substantive questions in favor of repeating what sounds like vaguely technical marketing speak. Your behavior follows the pattern of someone paid to do what they are doing. You have a total of 8 posts over 2 months, every single one about hygrozyme. Nobody comes on just to promote a product out of the goodness of their heart. Except maybe a brainwashed sap, and I don't think you are, are you?. Now what skin do you have in the game? I was struck by how many normal plant growth patterns in the thread linked above were attributed to this magic elixir. We are a little harder to dupe around here, because most of us know this plant is easy to care for. We get fat stems, nice white healthy roots, fat buds, tight node spacing, great flavor - without hygrozyme.
Enzymes are catalysts. They lower the energy required to initiate a reaction. In organic soil, if that reaction results in a free ion and no instigator of the reaction to make use of it, it is either going to wash away, diffuse, or be taken up. If a microbe is there as part of the soilfoodweb, the nutrients it frees up will all become part of the nutrient cycle (EDIT: this is incorrect. I have not accounted for gasses).
So even if your claim that enzymes on their own can make all your nutrients available were not complete bullshit on a scientific level, it would be neither desirable nor practical to "free up" all the nutes in my soil. I'm saving most of them for the next grow. What you propose is like saying you can release all the potential energy from my batteries. I don't want to release all of it. Just a bit at a time, so I can run my device longer.
As for you nutes study, let's start with backing up your claim that microbes can't live inside. That sounds like bullshit to me too. Tell you what. Get a microscope, and try an experiment for me: when outside temps are colder than inside, put 2 pieces of chicken in separate containers with a cheesecloth cover. Place one outside, and one on your kitchen counter. After 7 days, do some tests: smell, wipe each on a petri dish, whatever reliable method you have for identifying bacterial activity. Which piece of chicken will have more microorganisms: the one outside in cool temperatures, or the one inside, in the nice warm incubator that is your home. The answer is obvious, an you probably don't need to try: microorganisms can indeed live inside, sometimes even better than outside. I may have inserted my activities (moving compost from bins to medium) where some natural interactions used to take place, but I have some pretty powerful evidence that I have plenty of microbes (and enzymes). You can also query those members of this forum with microscopes that hook up to cameras, and get absolutely empirical evidence that you, sir, are feeding us bullshit.
1)does it do what you claim? - irrelevant, your claims carefully avoid making any real claims
2)does it help in other ways? - perhaps
3)is it worth the money? - no
Enzymes are catalysts. They lower the energy required to initiate a reaction. In organic soil, if that reaction results in a free ion and no instigator of the reaction to make use of it, it is either going to wash away, diffuse, or be taken up. If a microbe is there as part of the soilfoodweb, the nutrients it frees up will all become part of the nutrient cycle (EDIT: this is incorrect. I have not accounted for gasses).
So even if your claim that enzymes on their own can make all your nutrients available were not complete bullshit on a scientific level, it would be neither desirable nor practical to "free up" all the nutes in my soil. I'm saving most of them for the next grow. What you propose is like saying you can release all the potential energy from my batteries. I don't want to release all of it. Just a bit at a time, so I can run my device longer.
As for you nutes study, let's start with backing up your claim that microbes can't live inside. That sounds like bullshit to me too. Tell you what. Get a microscope, and try an experiment for me: when outside temps are colder than inside, put 2 pieces of chicken in separate containers with a cheesecloth cover. Place one outside, and one on your kitchen counter. After 7 days, do some tests: smell, wipe each on a petri dish, whatever reliable method you have for identifying bacterial activity. Which piece of chicken will have more microorganisms: the one outside in cool temperatures, or the one inside, in the nice warm incubator that is your home. The answer is obvious, an you probably don't need to try: microorganisms can indeed live inside, sometimes even better than outside. I may have inserted my activities (moving compost from bins to medium) where some natural interactions used to take place, but I have some pretty powerful evidence that I have plenty of microbes (and enzymes). You can also query those members of this forum with microscopes that hook up to cameras, and get absolutely empirical evidence that you, sir, are feeding us bullshit.
1)does it do what you claim? - irrelevant, your claims carefully avoid making any real claims
2)does it help in other ways? - perhaps
3)is it worth the money? - no
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Trichgnomes
Member
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the whole point of the Organic Soil section was to discuss insightful and outside the box ways of tending to this plant we all love so dearly--without the "help" of the bottle pushers. My purpose, as well as many other heads on this forum, is to create a living system in which the microorganisms are constantly cycling nutrients. Most of us know that at any given time nutrients are sequestered in the form of organic matter or a living organism. That is the goal as far as I am concerned. Compost Tea, EM, Vermicompost, these are things that most of us are using that achieve comparable if not better results than hygrozyme, while adhering to the above philosophy on growing from a microbial perspective.
COhomegrown
Member
Stoned Crow and Maryjohn, I have used Hygrozyme for 3 years not knowing to much about it other than that the friend who set me up with it said it works. I run Bio-Bizz nutrients and use hygrozyme in conjunction. I love it. i think it works great and i will use it until all 500$ of it are gone.
The point is we can all sit here and attack each other over who has the most green headie compost tea using way to grow pot or you can let the man tell us what he has to say. If you all want to argue the validity of his points go right ahead im not saying hes right. But making the ad hominem attack against jman saying hes on here to promote and push something you only make yourselves look bad.
I thought the purpose of this forum was to have intelligent discussions and help each other learn to grow better? If you dont want it here maybe send him to the hygrozyme thread.
Jman thanks for the input maybe we can head over to the hygrozyme thread for the rest. If you have any links to the studies you have read about it id love to see them!
B
Buffoonman
Very interseting post thanks for taking the time to share the info. Not sure why a couple of people are being negative. Read your other thread on nutrient comparisons also very good read. Will certainly be giving hygrozyme a try. Dont be put off jmansweed most people at ICmag are OK.
jmansweed
Member
I never said microbioligy cannot live indoors. I said it struggles in comparison to an outdoor environment. You add all this microbial boosting items because of this aspect. I increased my yeild using Hygrozyme substaintially by about 10% and felt like sharing the possible benefits with others. I also would and will promote other products that work well for me. I'm a senior member on many sights and have recenty joined this comminity. The number of posts in no way dictates ones experience. I make my living off medicinal marijuana - I'm not full of shit in any way.
Enzymes are catalysts. We agree on most of what you saying. I simply believe adding them greatly asists in boosting organic material decompisition. It does not replace microbial life - I do use microscopes, refractometers, and many tools to determine my conclusions. I also have the majority of my final product tested for cannabinoids etc. My claims of fatter buds and larger stems were in comparison to other plants in the test - not all of our plants in general. I'm happy you acheive these things with-out Hygrozyme, I do to. With the enzymes things are even better however. That is the point I'm making. Enzymes do not make ALL the nutrients available. They help decompose items microbial life is slow at doing. Like suspended non-solubles and old roots. I fully support the methods of developing compost tea and adding live, active microbes to my soil. I simply believe and have proved with experimentation that in my scenerio, Hygrozyme helps out.
As far as your chicken decompisition experiment. I'd suggest concentrating on soil organisms - not the bacteria that will decompose your chicken. These are two related but different food webs. Warm environments almost always decompose things more quickly by the way. Indoors or out, unless we include sterile environments. Go underground man.
" If a microbe is there as part of the soilfoodweb, the nutrients it frees up will all become part of the nutrient cycle "
Your quote here explains where I'm coming from. What if theres not a microbe there? Then added enzymes will do the job. They lower energy required for a reaction because no life is needed to complete the process. Less life - less energy. You guys are fighting your own battle here. I'm kind of in agreement with most of what your saying.
Lastly, I use a soiless medium - not sure if you noticed that detail. I add only soluble nutreints. My medium is rarely enhanced with organic additions. This test specifically was designed that way. I felt using a sterile, non-amended substrate would better expose ingrediant effectiveness. My mother plants however, are grown in Flower Power and Promix. Typically I add pH balanced water only to my "Moms" untill they start to exhaust soil nutrition. When I added Hygrozyme to the "water only" feedings they went longer periods before displaying defeciences.Your microbial life is specifically good at breaking down compounds easy to decompose - like starches and sugars. Things like cellulose and lignin however, both insoluble plant carbohydrates require assistance to properly decompose.
I truely believe creating a living soil substrate is the first priority in organic growing. In no way did I mean to dicourage any of you from attempting those methods. I simply believe Hygrozyme is an effective addition to my program. Thanks for every ones input - even the negative stuff. It all leads to discovery. I would appreciate you refraining from saying I'm full of shit. I take allot of pride in my work.
Enzymes are catalysts. We agree on most of what you saying. I simply believe adding them greatly asists in boosting organic material decompisition. It does not replace microbial life - I do use microscopes, refractometers, and many tools to determine my conclusions. I also have the majority of my final product tested for cannabinoids etc. My claims of fatter buds and larger stems were in comparison to other plants in the test - not all of our plants in general. I'm happy you acheive these things with-out Hygrozyme, I do to. With the enzymes things are even better however. That is the point I'm making. Enzymes do not make ALL the nutrients available. They help decompose items microbial life is slow at doing. Like suspended non-solubles and old roots. I fully support the methods of developing compost tea and adding live, active microbes to my soil. I simply believe and have proved with experimentation that in my scenerio, Hygrozyme helps out.
As far as your chicken decompisition experiment. I'd suggest concentrating on soil organisms - not the bacteria that will decompose your chicken. These are two related but different food webs. Warm environments almost always decompose things more quickly by the way. Indoors or out, unless we include sterile environments. Go underground man.
" If a microbe is there as part of the soilfoodweb, the nutrients it frees up will all become part of the nutrient cycle "
Your quote here explains where I'm coming from. What if theres not a microbe there? Then added enzymes will do the job. They lower energy required for a reaction because no life is needed to complete the process. Less life - less energy. You guys are fighting your own battle here. I'm kind of in agreement with most of what your saying.
Lastly, I use a soiless medium - not sure if you noticed that detail. I add only soluble nutreints. My medium is rarely enhanced with organic additions. This test specifically was designed that way. I felt using a sterile, non-amended substrate would better expose ingrediant effectiveness. My mother plants however, are grown in Flower Power and Promix. Typically I add pH balanced water only to my "Moms" untill they start to exhaust soil nutrition. When I added Hygrozyme to the "water only" feedings they went longer periods before displaying defeciences.Your microbial life is specifically good at breaking down compounds easy to decompose - like starches and sugars. Things like cellulose and lignin however, both insoluble plant carbohydrates require assistance to properly decompose.
I truely believe creating a living soil substrate is the first priority in organic growing. In no way did I mean to dicourage any of you from attempting those methods. I simply believe Hygrozyme is an effective addition to my program. Thanks for every ones input - even the negative stuff. It all leads to discovery. I would appreciate you refraining from saying I'm full of shit. I take allot of pride in my work.
I am being negative because the OP displays a suspicious pattern of activity, then evades any questions. COhomegrown, you should check out effective microbes or a LAB culture before you spend another 500$ on "enzymes". 500$ gives you how much of which enzymes again?
I'm not going to let bullshit go just to avoid "being negative". Half bullshit half truth equals "fair and balanced".
I'm not going to let bullshit go just to avoid "being negative". Half bullshit half truth equals "fair and balanced".
Once again bullshit. I add exactly the same "microbial boosters" inside as I do outside, and seasonal changes aside, with the same frequency. Where are you getting this info? just making it up? Do you think compost tea and EM were invented for indoor pot growers? you can transform wasteland with those technologies.
^^Truth
jmansweed
Member
Most microbial life requires 3 things to live. Light, moisture and nutreints. All are more naturally available outside. Just read a book on microbes man. It's a known fact that bacterial and fungal life thrive in outdoor conditions compared to our indoor environments. This is a researched fact beyond any study I've made. There is a vast amount of decomposing material outdoors at any given monment. There is also a much larger surface area to recieve substaincially larger amounts of light. There is also lots more water retention on the Earths surface. Naturally, more microbes live in this environment. Get your microscope, take a teaspoon of your indoor soil and compare to a teaspoon of rich outdoor soil. I don't need to tell you the results. You will see. I'm not sure which questions I'm not answering here - but I'd be happy to.
it's entirely possible to be both
you mean like my worm bin? no, really, can you point out WHICH decomposition reactions? Your enzymes don't aid in synthesis? Where is all this hard to break down organic matter? In my worm bin, man, not in my soil.
Interesting, you got my point about temperature being more relevant than whether you are under a roof. Are you proposing that if we compare some food and soil microorganisms of your choice, they will break down matter faster outside? On would you base that prediction, since it fits with your opinion that soil can't live indoors?
believe it or not, we will actually stop to ask "where did all the microbes go"? Rather than say "how can I accomplish my goals in the least efficient, most expensive way possible?".
Discovery of what? We still don't know which enzymes we are talking about. Just mystery juice in a bottle. We've discovered how to blow money, and that's about it. Tell you what, I'll apologize for calling you a shill if you stick around for at least a month and have some regular interactions not having to do with hygrozyme.
jmansweed
Member
I have pleanty of tests with-out Hygrozyme and will make a point of posting info more related to things you agree work well and are worth the money. Seeing how you obviously are the autority around here on whats bullshit and whats not. Can you please post the quote where I said that "microbial life can't live indoors" - I never said that.
There is hard to break down material in your soil - like suspended insoluble nutreints and dead roots and fungus chitin. These items all break down faster with added protien based enzymes - like Hygrozyme. And yes - adding the stuff to your compost greatly speeds that process up also.
The roof over you irrelavant chicken has nothing to do with the soil food web. Yes, it would decompose faster outdoors under similar temperature conditions.
Indoors, your microbes arn't going anywhere. They simply don't survive as well in a pot. When I mentioned discovery, I was trying to be respectful. Disagreeing with anothers methods often leads to learning new things and promotes research.
Its not mystery in a bottle. It is isolated protien based enzymes created through the fermentation of grain based ingrediantes. The results is a solution rich in amino acids and bacteria free that speeds the process of decompistion up. It's that simple. It speeds things up. Some of us like that aspect. You obviously don't feel it's worth the money or relivent to your methods. You also obviously don't think I know what I'm talking about.
You've made your point. Thanks for your input. I'm eager to read some of your posts.
There is hard to break down material in your soil - like suspended insoluble nutreints and dead roots and fungus chitin. These items all break down faster with added protien based enzymes - like Hygrozyme. And yes - adding the stuff to your compost greatly speeds that process up also.
The roof over you irrelavant chicken has nothing to do with the soil food web. Yes, it would decompose faster outdoors under similar temperature conditions.
Indoors, your microbes arn't going anywhere. They simply don't survive as well in a pot. When I mentioned discovery, I was trying to be respectful. Disagreeing with anothers methods often leads to learning new things and promotes research.
Its not mystery in a bottle. It is isolated protien based enzymes created through the fermentation of grain based ingrediantes. The results is a solution rich in amino acids and bacteria free that speeds the process of decompistion up. It's that simple. It speeds things up. Some of us like that aspect. You obviously don't feel it's worth the money or relivent to your methods. You also obviously don't think I know what I'm talking about.
You've made your point. Thanks for your input. I'm eager to read some of your posts.
sorry I misquoted this. I see you decided to misquote me back - I think this product is an absolute ripoff.
Oh, I see, protein based enzymes. Why didn't you say so? The bottom line is you still have no clue what is in this product. I can't find it either.
edit: I suspect it's something similar to EM, just filtered. the we site claims
Doesn't this seem a tad vague and faux technical to you? "bio-fermentation process"? that's called brewing and probably pasteurizing.
I'd like to see a run of this vs. some properly brewed compost tea applied once a month and a good soil properly cared for so the microbes don't die.
jmansweed
Member
We are getting to the same page here I think. My intension was to explained how well it worked in relationship to my methods. Not explain exactly how Hygrozyme is made. I agree the blend is vaguely explained by the manufacturer. Most of us are familiar with specific ingrediant fermintation however, and how this can produce desirable enzymes in the form of humic acids, including primarily amino acids. All which asist microbial life in doing their job more effeciently with less exerted energy.
Many growers struggle to maintain balanced healthy substrates indoors - as I've mentioned. I'm pleased your confident at keeping yours alive. For those of you who do occasionally feel like a boost is needed or who have suffered from root insects or disease I still recommend the hell out of Hygrozyme. I also add beneficial fungi and bacteria. I've done comparison grows with it and without. My results - I use it in addition to my nutes in every application. Check my "Nute Study" out.
Many growers struggle to maintain balanced healthy substrates indoors - as I've mentioned. I'm pleased your confident at keeping yours alive. For those of you who do occasionally feel like a boost is needed or who have suffered from root insects or disease I still recommend the hell out of Hygrozyme. I also add beneficial fungi and bacteria. I've done comparison grows with it and without. My results - I use it in addition to my nutes in every application. Check my "Nute Study" out.
Stoned Crow
Member
I never once attacked the OP. His first two posts looked like spam, smelled like spam, and my spidey senses told me it probably was spam, so I asked him if he sold the product. And from re-reading MaryJohn's posts, his spidey senses are telling him the same things.
I put a link to the other thread in post #19 because it's information worthy of discussion, and pinpoints why the Organic Soils Forum is such a great forum - We don't jump on bandwagons just because everyone else is. And if you read that entire thread I posted to, that's exactly what it was, a bandwagon.
If the OP has an entire nute study about organics, and he wants to have an indepth discussion concerning his study and results, this is the place to do it. This is the one place where you can be completely humbled and at the same time learn things that challenge your belief system. But if all he wants is a pat on the back, or if he has a hidden agenda, he'll be disappointed.
I already told the OP I was interested in seeing his study and results. Everyone stop being so damn sensitive. Relax, smoke some weed and chill out.
