Hydroton vs. Lava Rocks? Give me a newb set up

[Rush Limbong]

I'm really confused.

I've decided on going with ebb & flow, because I understand the principles, and am comfortable with it.

I can't get comfortable on a medium though

WTF man??

There's coco, rockwool, hydroton, lava rocks, hydrogrite or whatever the fuck it's called. I just want something that will get the job done....period.


I'm not "new" to growing, I've been very successful in soil grows, but I'm taking the leap to Hydro.


What would you guys suggest as a "newb, can't go wrong medium"???


RUSH

 

[TBug]

High Rush! The "grow rocks" I use are called Hydroton. The are round of varing sizes. It made from expanded clay, under heat and preasure. They work the best for ebb and flow. They hold lots of water that is released slowly while the pump is off. I used to use rockwool starter inserts/pugs for seeds and cuttings. Once the roots pop out the sides of the starter plug, id place some grow rocks in the bottom of a net pot, then place the plug w/plant in center and fill in around the sides. Once youve done that, its ready to go in the system. Peace and I hope that helps, TBug

 

[Truth]

Just get some hydroton... #1 choice in hydroponic growing. The rocks are more of a medium to just hold the plant in place, support. The real medium is the water, and that is for the roots. Hydroton is porous, so it can hold water for a little while without being too damp. But no matter the medium, if you allow it to stay excessively wet, or get excessively dry, you will have problems.

 

[TBug]

High rush! Here is my old system,..
http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-journals/95965-begining.html
if you must do e/f, this set up was close to perfect. Peace, TBug

 

[Rush Limbong]

Thanks Truth and TBug.

TBug.....WTF ? Bro? That thread was like something out of a science fiction movie!!!

Really cool! Looked and read it for a while.....nice!

 

[TBug]

Thanks Truth and TBug.

TBug.....WTF ? Bro? That thread was like something out of a science fiction movie!!!

Really cool! Looked and read it for a while.....nice!

High rush!..lol. Yeah, I steamrolled a couple of those battlestar galctica guys to line the walls and shit. Too bad I didnt save any for the resivoir though
This was my latest run...
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=34081
Thanks, glad you liked it. Peace, TBug

 

[EcoNepenthe]

Clay vs Lava

Clay vs Lava

If you read BigTokes threads you'll note something about the lava rock retaining good bacteria. Not to mention how inxpensive and available lava rocks is. My preference is the rocks. Takes a damn lot of cleaning to get rid of buildup of sediment, etc before use.
Here's BigToke's comment for something to think about clay balls vs lava rocks.
The Use Of Beneficial Bacteria For Water Quality Control
I well try to explain some of the concepts of growing in a bio-bucket system, and sense a lot of people have never heard of "bio-buckets" I'll start with what makes it "bio," I am not referring to the nutrients! I am referring to the beneficial bacterium, there is good and bad bacterium, the good bacterium if put under a microscope is a "short chained bacteria" which are the good one's and feeds off of the bad bacteria which is a "long chained bacteria" which grows when something is non moving and steal and stagnate, that’s way they say to only drink out of fast moving streams because long-chained bad bacteria well build up in a non moving system, so the idea here is to have a recirculating system.
The use of beneficial bacteria populations that can decompose organic sludge as well as bacteria that can convert ammonia and nitrites into nitrates, reduce BOD (biochemical oxygen demand), bind excess phosphates, prevents algal blooms and maintains a microbiological equilibrium in the system. This process has been studied for many years in the water treatment industry and recently has been introduced in aquaculture with very encouraging results. (I well discuss this in more detail later on) so that there is NO DEAD SPOTS in the design of your system.
Now how do you get the beneficial bacterium started in your system, well that's the essayist part of all, you need to give them a home to live in, sense this is a DWC type of system in the bottom of my lid I use an 8" net-pots, DO NOT USE CLAY BALLS, the beneficial bacterium cannot penetrate the heard clay balls, so you won't to use something like "lava rock" or some kind of pumice rock that has tiny little holes in it were the good bacterium can live, Now that you have that just fill up your system with tap water or RO water and live your pump running 24/7 for one week, NOTE: (any thing over 100 gallons, live for two weeks) mine is a 205 gallon system so I fill the system and let it run and in the min time I take my cutting's and by the time thy are rooted the system is ready!
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=5816

Hope this helps.
Success w/ya grow!!!
Stay safe!!!

Eco

Watch em grow!!!

 

[budrezin]

hydroton is good for ebb & flow because it drains well leaving the roots exposed to oxygen in the air.

 

[budrezin]

econepenthe, i did abit of research now the hydroton is expanded clay which means if you break one open you will see it looks alot like pumice stone ie. it has holes through it ,an effect caused when they treat the clay with high heat. now this expanded clay can house beneficial bacterium quite easily.
The "lava rock has sharp edges that damage the roots" that was a quote from when i was reding about it. also i read not many people use lava rocks now because theres better stuff around now. i don't know if they were refering to hydroton.

 

[Rush Limbong]

alot of "advanced" hydro growers seem to like the coco....hydroton seems tried and true for beginners I guess?

 

[Haps]

This water is way too clear - hehe. I use rocks and hydroton mixed together in dwc,it is very stable that way. When I wash up the hydrocorn floats out, it is cool. is floating an issue in ebb and flow?
H

 

[Punani JAck]

I havew used Hydroton in my DWC setups for over 3 grows now... ONly thing I dont like about it is that heavy plants will fall over. I am definately switching to lava rocks as soon as practicle. Also I believe in the beneficial bacteria thing. I know about aquariums and I have used lava rocks in my filter systems for the same reason.

 

[budrezin]

if your not blessed with an automated system then coco coir is fantastic because like soil it stays soaking wet all day & night. if your at the stage where you are hand watering i do not recomend expanded clay i would definatly use coco. even though the coco stays soaking wet the roots still get a bit of oxygen.
as far as the beneficial bacteria, they do not only seek out homes in the holes of lava rock. the bacteria actualy colonizes the root system ie.roots themselves not just medium so yeah the bacteria thing is true.
In my experience of growing trees in expanded clay they did not even remotely look like they would fall over. but if you had undeveloped roots or the roots are rotting i can understand how the plant would fall over but i hardly think that this is a medium problem.
lava rocks probably work great in ebb & flow just that i read the shape damages the root system.
all in all i think hydroton is great for beginners & i'll leave the coco to the experts.

 

[Truth]

If you read BigTokes threads you'll note something about the lava rock retaining good bacteria. Not to mention how inxpensive and available lava rocks is. My preference is the rocks. Takes a damn lot of cleaning to get rid of buildup of ash, etc before use.
Here's BigToke's comment for something to think about clay balls vs lava rocks.
The Use Of Beneficial Bacteria For Water Quality Control
I well try to explain some of the concepts of growing in a bio-bucket system, and sense a lot of people have never heard of "bio-buckets" I'll start with what makes it "bio," I am not referring to the nutrients! I am referring to the beneficial bacterium, there is good and bad bacterium, the good bacterium if put under a microscope is a "short chained bacteria" which are the good one's and feeds off of the bad bacteria which is a "long chained bacteria" which grows when something is non moving and steal and stagnate, that’s way they say to only drink out of fast moving streams because long-chained bad bacteria well build up in a non moving system, so the idea here is to have a recirculating system.
The use of beneficial bacteria populations that can decompose organic sludge as well as bacteria that can convert ammonia and nitrites into nitrates, reduce BOD (biochemical oxygen demand), bind excess phosphates, prevents algal blooms and maintains a microbiological equilibrium in the system. This process has been studied for many years in the water treatment industry and recently has been introduced in aquaculture with very encouraging results. (I well discuss this in more detail later on) so that there is NO DEAD SPOTS in the design of your system.
Now how do you get the beneficial bacterium started in your system, well that's the essayist part of all, you need to give them a home to live in, sense this is a DWC type of system in the bottom of my lid I use an 8" net-pots, DO NOT USE CLAY BALLS, the beneficial bacterium cannot penetrate the heard clay balls, so you won't to use something like "lava rock" or some kind of pumice rock that has tiny little holes in it were the good bacterium can live, Now that you have that just fill up your system with tap water or RO water and live your pump running 24/7 for one week, NOTE: (any thing over 100 gallons, live for two weeks) mine is a 205 gallon system so I fill the system and let it run and in the min time I take my cutting's and by the time thy are rooted the system is ready!
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=5816

Hope this helps.
Success w/ya grow!!!
Stay safe!!!

Eco

Watch em grow!!!

All beneficial bacteria does is break down nutrients for plant uptake.. chemical nutes are already in their pure form, so it is quicker take up. This can make for better smell from the waste released by these bacteria...but other than that...you couldn't tell the difference between the 2 by looking at them.

"the beneficial bacterium cannot penetrate the heard clay balls"

i don't get this statement.. hydroton is a porous surface..meaning it can hold many pockets of water within its craters...I don't see how that CANT be a good environment for bacteria. bacteria is in water, water is on hydroton...I'm just not seeing it. I've seen many organic grows with hydroton.

 

[budrezin]

i agree if you crack one of those hydroton balls in half it looks just like that pumice stone

 

[pico]

If your plants are falling over, you probably need to put bigger net pots inside your DWC buckets. Those small net pots don't hold enough hydroton to be very heavy and I could see a large plant falling over.

 

[RuralRoute420]

.

.

"alot of "advanced" hydro growers seem to like the coco....hydroton seems tried and true for beginners I guess"

that's funny. everything has a drawback, and everybodies situation is different. otherwise everyone would be using the "best shit out there"(the same thing). it's kinda like saying e/f grows better weed then dwc, or nft, ect. now i'll tell you what does suck about hydroton(i use), cleaning a large amount - backbreaking, and stepping on them, but i still use them.

back to the original question - i vote for hydroton to be a forgiving medium, and easy to work with.

now, anyone tried the white grow rocks(SILICA STONE)? the new stuff. haven't seen a single grow with them, just wondering how they rate against the clay?

 

[thescissors]

I am using lava rocks in my DWC and the trouble i am seeing is the roots LOVE the lava rocks so much, they tend to LINGER in there... it was MANY weeks before i saw roots come out below the netpot, although i did a pretty traumatic soil-to-rocks transplant, so i guess i should be happy i didnt outright kill the clone! Other than that i cant comment. i have a 50litre bag of hydroton but its not at this location. so i just went to home depot and got lava rocks for my 6" netpot (and yes they take a bit of rinsing, but its just rock dust to worry about).

and the hydroton's interior doesnt help the bacteria GET to the interior or interact with the water on the outside of the hydroton. lava rocks are wide-open, and the roots LOVE them!!! (too much??)

 

[Sauce]

Lava rocks work well but personally for ebb/flow I would go with hydroton. It holds more water and will require less watering cycles. I do agree that lava rocks will help promote more beneficial bacteria but I disagree with the statement that hydroton won't support beneficial bacteria. Bigtoke is a smart guy but no matter what he says he has no scientific proof that hydroton won't support beneficials.

You could do a combo but personally I would just stick to hydroton, keep it simple.

Whatever you use, wash it thoroughly, there will be a lot of dust and particles that chip off of hydroton and lava rocks.

I am not a fan of high water retaining mediums for ebb/flow. This includes coco, rockwool, and to a lesser extent perlite and even silica stone. Hydroton and lava rocks allow a lot more o2 to get to the roots and it's very hard to overwater these low water retaining mediums.

 

[Truth]

Hydroton is in no way a beginners only medium, it is popular because of its ease of use, and usefulness. I think alot of people look at hydroton wrongly...namely, as a medium for their roots...this CAN be true in certain setups, but for the most part, you want water and air to be your medium for roots, not your hydroton. The hydroton is a medium and support base for your stem. You can easily overwater hydroton if you have your system setup to allow it to do so. This can lead to slowed growth, droopy leafs, and root rot.

What I do personally.. before I put a plant in a netpot, I allow them to stretch enough to where the bottom most node is poking out side of the top(with seeds, but clones are just stripped of all lower growth), and that the main base of the stem, is at the very most bottom of the netpot. so all of my root growth is concentrated outside of the netpot, away from the hydroton. The roots come out of the bottom more than they do the sides of the netpots. And for the most part, the single bottom most layer of the hydroton is all that is kept moist. The roots will only grow towards water, and in any system besides top feed, the roots should be growing downward, not upward. Keep the hydroton dry from atleast half way up the netpot when feeding from the bottom. This gives a low possibility of stems being over saturated, and mediums dry out quicker when using timed cycles, meaning more available oxygen.

Later when the roots have lengthened and thickened enough, I allow the res level to drop low enough to keep the water from bubbling up to the netpot (but still have at least 2 inches of roots hanging in air, and 2 inches in water). After this is complete, there is almost no way you can over water your plants.. the roots at the base of the stem will thicken up further from the exposure to air, but since the roots suck the water up towards these areas, they are easily replenished without being externally wet. So if you are worried, about them drying out don't be. as long as a good portion of the roots are in the water, they will thrive.

I mention this in detail because I have seen too many hydroton grows, where the roots are poking out of even the top of the netpot, everywhere even, overcrowding each other, fighting for air and escape from the pockets of water trapped within the hydroton. The problem is, hydroton doesn't do so well when the roots begin to wrap around all within the netpot. it makes for longer drying times between cycles, and less oxygen available to the roots. The presence of the roots in the hydroton promotes this. That is why I say hydroton is a better medium for stems, and water/air is your true root medium.