How do phenotypes work in seeds?

[africaseeds]

Does each seed contain a phenotype or does each seed contain several phenotypes, each activated in its own environment?


I'm trying to understand if phenotypes are locked into a seed or are they purely an environmental expression in the genes that is simply activated in the correct environment?


Also if you find a keeper pheno and use that in breeding, does polinating only that pheno lock the pheno into the genes of the seed that will be produced from that pheno and how does that work?


Thanks

 

[Burro Johnson]

each seed contains one expression from birth, genetic drift is sometimes possible through expression of sports cut from the same seed grown plant.

the more a particular line is grown in a particular environment and the proper selections are made by the breeder or naturally by the weather then the more successful and desirable that seedline will be, in that particular environment.

when you cross any other plant into your existing line then the expressions are not defined purely on only one of the parents. Depending on background and genetic stability your results could range from fairly homogenous to extremely variable. I hope this helps, keep asking questions its the only way to know.

 

[Burro Johnson]

plants are very unusual and aren't always defined to exact parameters. Some would argue that temperature and ph during early growth help determine whether a seed will be a male or female throughout the duration of its longevity. I'd like to see more research before i accept this as definite truth, it's deffinately something to consider.

but to answer your first question, plants will act differently and will produce different results when two exact copies of the same plant are grown in two different environments but will essentially have the same genetics that they started with.

Making seeds with these two fully developed females both grown in different environments may produce different results depending on what genes were signalled during it's growth. The results again will be variable but always more pronounced the longer a seedline is restricted solely to one environment.

Like I said plants are very unusual. The more experience you get the more you can estimate how and what your plants will do and the less surprised you will be when they do something unpredictable. They are always living and dying, the entire process is a living entity in and of itself with almost endless possibilities but always with one similarity.

 

[Koondense]

Phenos dont get locked in genes after pollination, are just an expression of genetic potential.
Also clones in different mediums and light spectrums show differences in phenos and can be only partially "locked" with further selections.


Not sure if it makes sense using this unscientific terminology.



Cheers

 

[africaseeds]

Phenos dont get locked in genes after pollination, are just an expression of genetic potential.
Also clones in different mediums and light spectrums show differences in phenos and can be only partially "locked" with further selections.


Not sure if it makes sense using this unscientific terminology.



Cheers

Your reply confused me even more but thanks.
What would be more/better scientific terminology to use in this situation?
Thanks

 

[Fuel]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Does each seed contain a phenotype

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]each seed contain an unique combination[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of traits (they are not clones) than can pass a DNA test.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These traits will be exposed (or latent, waiting for the trigger) in the phenotype than is coming from the seed, which is an answer to a given environment.[/FONT]

does each seed contain several phenotypes

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the seed is like a genetic pool than is permitting to the plant to adapt to different casestrough different expressions.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But these potential phenotypes turn around the same pool of gens, it's mapped fast,the rate of variation between them is not the same [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]than between different seeds. Twos different seeds can produce twos different core of vital functions and enzymatic leverages, not the case with a single seeds and all its potential expressions.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]each activated in its own environment[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, and/or in its artificial triggers (experimental mapping).[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm trying to understand if phenotypes are locked into a seed or are they purely an environmental expression in the genes that is simply activated in the correct environment?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Both.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let's say than you make a F1 hybrid between strain A and strain B.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Specimen 1 of strain A contain 100% of its genetic information (inherited from twos specific parent, not from the whole genotype). Same with Specimen 2 from strain B.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When their flowers are working together, both specimens will send a partial information to the future seed. In a way a first segregation is already acting at the moment the grain of pollen touch the pistil.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The result of this first segregation is relative to the "weight/intensity" of the partial information shared between the male and the female. The male can dominate the expression of the chemotype, the female can dominate the flowers shape etc ... each couple offer a specific "balance" of these twos partial codes.
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many people think than breeding is a matter of prophecy game, but you pass more time to map what is segregated by the plants themselves than anything else.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]When this first layer of segregation is done (the seed is created and ready to germinate), a second layer of segregation will apply and it's the environnement.


No, phenotypes are not entirely build by the environnement. Phenotypes are a limited spectrum of answers to an infinite potential of environnement, not all the answers of the genotype.



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Also if you find a keeper pheno and use that in breeding, does polinating only that pheno lock the pheno into the genes of the seed that will be produced from that pheno and how does that work?

[/FONT][/FONT]


Let's say than you're using one male A on three female B. Cannabis is naturally haploid, it mean than each time the twos specimens are sending a partial information to make a complete one.

The blend of this information can be considered as unique each time (DNA), even in using one male only.


When you will hit the three females with your unique source of pollen, you don't stack the same male partial informations on the three females. You produce three differents form of expression of this male. Let's say than this male is stretchy as fuck.



The male A with the female B1 can produce a stretchy plant.
The male A with the female B2 can produce a stretch-less plant.
The male A with the female B3 can produce a gigantism.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]The same male information is used but the priority of the "stretch" information is not used the same way with the female's material. If you want to give to offspring the "stretch", you have to choose the female than is genetically permitting it. A female which is not neutralizing this trait.


Breeding is the methodologies and technics permitting to reduce the spectrum of these variations by the differents stabilization practices, the knowledge of genotype's dynamics and also what is the genetic first priorities of the line used.



To best understand with your hands this specific question, a little backcrossing program will boost drastically your learning curve. You will learn very fast than you can't really "stack" a genetic information with haploid plants.


hope it help, best vibes for your projects

 

[mr.brunch]

Don’t they say : genotype + environment = phenotype
Might be wrong, I’m a little hazed...

 

[beta]

C̶h̶e̶m̶o̶t̶y̶p̶e̶ Genotype is the plant's genetic information. This is set when the seed is fertilized.

Phenotype is the C̶h̶e̶m̶o̶t̶y̶p̶e̶ Genotype's expression in a given environment. In other words, it's he combination of C̶h̶e̶m̶o̶t̶y̶p̶e̶ Genotype and your particular environment.

I think when most people mean say 'phenotype' they mean 'C̶h̶e̶m̶o̶t̶y̶p̶e̶' 'genotype'.

 

[Koondense]

Beta, are you sure about chemotype? Sounds like genotype.
Well, now this is the messiest thread ever

Simple explanation .pdf

Cheers

 

[djonkoman]

I don't think I ever heard the term chemotype outside of cannabis, but inferring from the contexts I read it, it's seperate from both genotype and phenotype.

as the link from koondense above here explains:

genotype=the purely genetic part
phenotype=what you actually observe, which is genotype+environmental influence

chemotype=(as I interpret it) the phenotype of specifically the cannabinoids+terpenes part, so ignoring all other traits such as growth structure.


basically each phenotype is unique, because there will pretty much always be some subtle differences in the conditions 2 plants, even next to eachother, experience.
but if you're breeding, or phenohunting to choose a plant to clone, you're actually more interested in the underlying genotype. but since you only actually see the phenotype, not the genotype, you select on the basis of phenotype, and on the basis of the phenotype you guess the genotype.

so while I agree with beta(if he meant genotype where he typed chemotype) that people are actually thinking of genotype usually, it is actually scientifically more accurate to only talk about phenotype. since that's what you actually see. the genotype you could only 'see' if you sequence the dna, if you're not doing that, you can only make assumptions about the genotype based on the phenotypes you see(like you see a certain trait being constant across different grow environments. you can conclude that it's part of the genotype, but you still only actually saw phenotypes).

back to the question in the OP, a seed doesn't contain multiple phenotypes. it's a bit of a definition-thing, so kind of nitpicky. you're thinking of the potential for different phenotypes.

but because of the definition of phenotype, there is no phenotype without environment. a seed has a genotype, which could develop into different phenotypes based on environment. but by definition, you don't have a phenotype yet without that environment, so there are no 'potential phenotypes'. as soon as you germ that seed, and it starts growing, what you see is a phenotype(since the shell of the seed is the mother's tissue, so how the seed looks on the outside is still part of the mother's phenotype). but anything you see with your eyes(or smell, or feel) is part of a phenotype, since there is always an environment in which it is growing which has an influence.

ignoring the exception of epigenetics, you can't 'lock in' a phenotype, since the environment influience part will always be different, but the underlying genotype does inherit, but you can only indirectly observe it.

think of it like this: let's say you have an average quality plant genetics wise. this theoretical plant is completely stable. you're a good grower and tyou can get some great weed from it despite being only average, because you provide a good growing environment. one corner of your room has just slightly better conditions as the rest of the room, so the plant growing in that corner always gives the best weed.
now you can clone that plant for generations, but the underlying genetics(genotype) won't change, so it won't make all plants in the room end up just as excellent as the plant grown in that specific corner.
now let's say you try out a new strain. it is genetically superior, but you don't know this yet. you grow it in another corner of your room, and at the end of the grow, you evaluate all phenotypes, and the average genotype grown in the good corner is again the best. you could now make the mistake of throwing out the new strain, because of inferior phenotype, while the underlying genotype is actually better.

 

[beta]

You're both right, my bad - I was confusing chemotype with genotype. I'll edit my original comment.