Heritability of Intersex Traits

[wdcf]

Sorry to bump an old thread, so ill try to keep it as brief as possible so greeninthumb does not have to much ammunition to fire at me

Okay so if you have two different landraces (P1's) and you breed them together and get F1's
one trait will be dominant over the other (Aa) between the 2 different lines,
but if you bred the F1's and made F2's then their would be more recessive traits(aa) expressed in your F2 seeds right?..

Right?

Thanks

some more thoughts on my thought process below

 

[wdcf]

Quoting zamalito
"With the p1's I make as broad of a selection as possible but more importantly meet as close to your ideal as possible. With the f1's I make a broad (higher quantity of parents) selection with no attention paid to an ideal aside from selecting against plants which autoflower and lack vigor and potency. In the f1 a broad selection is important. The f2 and f3 generations are different. With these generations it is important to grow out many plants as possible in the search for your parents to make the next generation. With this generation I select few plants (no more than two males and females more if you get very lucky and find 3 or more identical males or females which meet your ideal) but being very selective is key. With subesequent generations you should start making increasingly broad numbers of parents that are high quality and represent the pheno(s) you wish to appear in your ibl.

Ok here's the explanation. The reasoning behind why you shouldn't be too selective regarding the aesthetic traits in the f1 is because many traits are masked by both hybrid vigor a trait dominance. In the f2 recessive recombination appears and this is where you see what potential you have in your cross and where you decide what you want your ibl to become. You're more than likely going to see a wide array of genetic diversity in this generation. If you grow out enough seeds you will see plants which are 99% towards on parent or the other and every degree in between as well as seeing traits you probably never saw in the parental line."

"Say you're working with a selected f2 parent. The less frequently it's pheno ocurrs in a seedline the more difficult it is to get that pheno ocurr in it's offspring. If one selects a less diverse array of phenos in f1 which allows the desired pheno to occur more frequently in the f2 it makes that pheno easier to fix in subsequent generations. One of the reasons why I think that many home bred seeds made with selections from small numbers (10-20) of seeds are frequently better than large seed co seeds because they're selecting the best of the most commonly occuring phenos. Whereas the larger breeders may select some parental type that you may have to grow 1000 seeds to find and it simply isn't going to take in the offspring and may end up contributing less than the subsequent generation"

 

[wdcf]

F'2s anyone?

 

[toryscum]

With regards to intersex traits/genes I have mostly done my selections based on light tweaking to find the intersexed plants, I now feel I should be doing more.. for instance I used some soil that had aphids in it, safe to say they stressed the plants severly and I ended up ditching the lot... This was from a new mother plant, but I decided to put her in a flower room regardless to which she bloomed and produced without any intersex traits/genes shown whatsoever.. so if intersex genes are on the autosome and do get switched with stress etc.. it would seem we have to test for many different stressful scenarios...

 

[Honkytonk]

.. it would seem we have to test for many different stressful scenarios...

If one only knew that a female plant's reaction to CS/STS treatments (how fast and how violent she throws nanners or not all) is in direct relation to the stability of the plant's sexual expression then one wouldn't need to bother with 'many different stressful scenarios'...

 

[toryscum]

If one only knew that a female plant's reaction to CS/STS treatments (how fast and how violent she throws nanners or not all) is in direct relation to the stability of the plant's sexual expression then one wouldn't need to bother with 'many different stressful scenarios'...

Well I have done this too with a fem that responded superbly to STs etc, when the lights where thrown about I did not get lots of nanners ! (edit sorry my bad, it did not throw out nanners with the lights only the aphids)

 

[Honkytonk]

Exactly!

 

[CFP65]

well the first post and the files in this link
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&page=8
does make a pretty good job of describing how to sort out the 7% females
and get rid of the hermies and the males
i should thnik that the remaining 7% females after this kind of treatment should be female enough, but if they are the best yielding - smoking etc. etc is another matter, and i dont know if they can be revegged after this treatment
but i would think that at least a cange of soil/medium should be in place before reveg
i have not done it yet, but i do see something in the method here described

 

[toryscum]

well the first post and the files in this link
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&page=8
does make a pretty good job of describing how to sort out the 7% females
and get rid of the hermies and the males
i should thnik that the remaining 7% females after this kind of treatment should be female enough, but if they are the best yielding - smoking etc. etc is another matter, and i dont know if they can be revegged after this treatment
but i would think that at least a cange of soil/medium should be in place before reveg
i have not done it yet, but i do see something in the method here described

From memory thats about applying specific hormones to the roots isn't it? not really what I'm on about...

 

[CFP65]

well you tried light tweaking and soil with aphids,and wanted something to trigger intersex even more /and i presume its to eye out the ones with intersex traits)¨
and yes its about watering down GA3 wery early on, and keeping them on 12/12 from start
that provokes all but 7% of a population to go male or intersex.
well the 7% should in my eyes make a good starter, for some ligth tweaking.
that is one could get rid of intersex and the males if one wants to from a big batch and thous reduce the space and time, by flipping the growing order around

 

[toryscum]

Exactly!

not with you, the selected mother plant or "Candidate A" was tested via STS, she reversed and nothing more, she was tested with light tweaking and again no nanners, the only thing that set the plants off was Aphids as a result of this i'm asking what others do to test.. be it doing as CFP65, although I can't read the article he/she has pointed out to me, but I'm presuming what he/she has pointed out to me is about a response to hormones.. this isn't what aphids cause as far as I'm aware.. I guess an outdoor grower could of had this problem Ie they have had so called "true" females albeit maybe the plant should not reverse at all, however they seem very few and far between, therefore I want to know what others do "weed" out the intersex plants.

Regards

Dave Camerons love child.

 

[Honkytonk]

...a fem that responded superbly to STs etc, when the lights where thrown about I got lots of nanners !

So, by saying that, you didn't mean that your female that superbly reacted to STS (i.e. readily reversed) also threw nanners when stressed by photoperiod manipulation?

My bad, sorry, I'm probably lacking language skills...

 

[toryscum]

So, by saying that, you didn't mean that your female that superbly reacted to STS (i.e. readily reversed) also threw nanners when stressed by photoperiod manipulation?

My bad, sorry, I'm probably lacking language skills...

no it threw nanners with the aphids, it reacted well to light tweaks etc. (re-read my post and it was me that wrote it wrong.for that I say sorry)

this is why she was selected as I thought she was resistant to stress... seems I was wrong

this is why I'm wondering about many different stresses or if i'm fighting a losing battle etc.

its basically down to these posts that have got me thinking.

Yes, it does concern me, greatly, I have to answer for my product and I take that with the utmost seriousness. This is why I am subjecting plants to stress testing currently and selecting away from intersexed traits that I may be able to force to the surface. It also concerns me that it may be foolish for man to breed cannabis to prepare for such conditions, it worries me what genetic material we are throwing away along with it - you see, I also have to answer to our grandsons for what I have done so to speak. So I will also maintain stock for my personal holding that has not been subjected to such selections. In my opinion, increased intersexed expression is not even worth mentioning when we speak of the genetic erosion of cannabis that has taken place in the last few decades. My comment about phenotypic expression is the same I've been saying all along. Just because we go through the trouble of finding a "true female" doesn't necessarily translate to making any forward progress at all towards the stated goal of eliminating intersexed traits from a genepool.

Just kindof wondering how effective selections away from intersexed traits are, and imagine it's more complex. Sam has agreed to share his findings/progress on this in the past but this is probably not the thread for it. I'm guessing that applying a few stress tests to the breeding candidate surely doesn't mean that all will be well, that was my basic point. For it to be a true female, genetically, should it not have to prove its offspring (obtained by selfing let's say) cannot be reversed via stress either? Otherwise, its breeding value is greatly diminished. It could be that it simply does not reverse via stress due to some modifying autosome/s being masked in heterozygote/s. If that were the case, then it is of no higher breeding value (regarding that trait) than its intersexed sister who gives rise to a lessor percentage of intersexed progeny.

Plenty of breeders have put selections against intersexed traits at the forefront of their programs too, and it hasn't always worked out well for them either, surely.

In my experience, many traits under the control of major genes are strongly correlated to more complex traits, they are individual pieces of this larger polygenetic puzzle. For example, if I select away from various simply inherited structural traits early on (large leaf, petiole, stem, etc) I might see progress towards more complex traits like yield.-T

 

[toryscum]

no it threw nanners with the aphids, it reacted well to light tweaks etc. (re-read my post and it was me that wrote it wrong.for that I say sorry)

this is why she was selected as I thought she was resistant to stress... seems I was wrong

this is why I'm wondering about many different stresses or if i'm fighting a losing battle etc.

its basically down to these posts that have got me thinking.

seems no one has the answers to this... I took the remaining clones into flower without any aphids, they are fine and have no nanners at all so its def the root stress that caused it... so does anyone have a suggestion for testing this?

 

[GMT]

Just dropping in on this thread, cant say i read it all just skimmed it. But I want to chip in my own personal opinion on sex chromosomes. I dont believe in male a male gene containing the info necessary for males and the female holding female info the way I used to. I now believe that both sexes hold all the info, but also the instructions for inhibitting the devolpment of the other sex. So a male will inhibbit female growth successfully rather than force male growth. And vice versa. This is why a pure female will throw pollen when a chemical inhibitor is added as it inhibits the females ability to inhibit the male development. ie the negatives cancel out allowing the full development of the plant. Clearly how succesfully a plant inhibits the development of the oposite sex will be determined by environment and genetic coding. A portion of the coding will be passed onto offspring, and therefore the ability to inhibit the development of both sexes on one plant.
Or the short answer, yes hermying is a family trait.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Maybe you should read the thread.

 

[GMT]

whys that?
since charles left theres no one here who can give us a definate on anything, we're just tossing theories around between us.

 

[englishrick]

hay GMT,,,where have you been bro,,i missed you,,,,

lately i have relized that cannabis has no hemaphrodites,,,from what ive read and from what people tell me,,, all the low-stress intersexed expreshion we see in feminized lines is because of inactive sex-chromozones and this deems specimines monocious....is this correct? ,,,,,

i dont suppose any of you guys can tell me the genetic difference between monocious specimines and hemaphrodites?,,,,,,,,i know the phenotipic differences but is there something different going on with the chromozones?

again ,,,good to see you GMT,,,an i didnt buy the sony,,it has a weird lag when there is fast movement

 

[GreenintheThumb]

whys that?
since charles left theres no one here who can give us a definate on anything, we're just tossing theories around between us.

Maybe he left because assholes keep using negative reps? Thanks, I appreciate that.

 

[burningfire]

hay GMT,,,where have you been bro,,i missed you,,,,

lately i have relized that cannabis has no hemaphrodites,,,from what ive read and from what people tell me,,, all the low-stress intersexed expreshion we see in feminized lines is because of inactive sex-chromozones and this deems specimines monocious....is this correct? ,,,,,

i dont suppose any of you guys can tell me the genetic difference between monocious specimines and hemaphrodites?,,,,,,,,i know the phenotipic differences but is there something different going on with the chromozones?

again ,,,good to see you GMT,,,an i didnt buy the sony,,it has a weird lag when there is fast movement

from what I have seen there are real hermaphrodites that produce an equal amount of female and male flowers but many plants will produce male flowers when stressed, it's a simple survival mechanism. .