Hempy bucket - What am I doing wrong?

[dR. HerbLove]

Hey there everyone,

I am growing a Burmese Widow in a 2qt Hempy bucket filled just with perlite. I bought the plant as a clone about 2 months ago and have not been able to give her what she needs. In the 2 months she has gone from a 6" clone to a 9" twig. I have done so much reading and yet just cannot figure it out.

My guess is a pH problem, but no matter how carefully I try to be with the pH nothing seems to get better. I am aiming for 5.8 which is what I read for hydro. When I spoke with my local hydro guy, he said that I should aim for 5.9 to be safe so I have been. Some other sites I have seen mention people using 6 to 6.2 for their hempy buckets. Am I right to consider my perlite hempy buckets as hydro?

If anyone can throw me a bone and point me in the right direction, I will give you the biggest high five ever!

Spex:

How long has this problem been going on?
2 months

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent?
Open door pantry

What system are you running?
100% perlite hempy bucket

What STRAIN are you growing?
Burmese Widow

What was the establishing technique?
Cloning

What is the age of your plants?
2 months since clone

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?
2 months

How tall are the plants?
9” – 10”

What PHASE are the plants in?
Vegetative

What Technique are you using?
Natural growth

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
100% perlite

What is the Water temperature?
Room temperature (about 80 F)

What color are your roots?
Some parts are brown, shriveled, and dried and some parts are white and healthy looking

What Nutrient's are you using?
General Hydroponics Flora series

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
Mild vegetative mix (1:1:1 per gallon of H2O) at about 2 cups

How often are you feeding?
Every 4 -5 days

How often are you giving nutrients?
Every watering

What order are you mixing your nutrients?
Micro - Gro - Bloom

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
About 400-450

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
No tank (drain to waste); pH of soln = 5.8 – 5.9

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?
Always in question, but calibrated everyday

When was your last watering?
4 days ago (flushed with 6.0 pH H2O)

What is your water temps?
Room temperature

When was your last feeding change?
4 days ago (flushed with 6.0 pH’d H2O)

What size bulb are you using?
125W 6400K CFL

What is the distance to the canopy?
4 inches

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
Probably around 45-50%

What is the canopy temperature?
Probably near room temperature

What is the Day/Night Temp?
Mid to low 80s = day; high to mid 70s = night

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Very low

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
No ventilation- open door pantry

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
200mm fan blowing over canopy

What water are you using?
Distilled

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
I pluck off dead and dried leaves

Are plant's infected with pest's
I’ve seen 1 or 2 fungus gnats

Here are some pictures:

 

[dR. HerbLove]

Hey Shogun,

Thanks for the quick response! I think the run off is usually around 6.2 - 6.5. When you start at 5.5, how long does it usually take you to dry out? I have been giving the plants low amounts of H2O in hopes that it would use it up before any pH change in the bucket.

Also, does the pH change if its already soaked into the perlite? There usually isn't any standing soln in the pot because it's soaked into the perlite or condensed on the outside of the inside of the pot (see pic).

As for the color of the pot, I figure the clear is fine for now so I can have a good picture of that's going on inside. When I get things sorted out, I was planning on covering it all up with alum tape. Could the algae be causing some shit right now?

 

[jammie]

hey there herblove. what i'm seeing is a plant streching like crazy for the thickness of the stalk. that means your not getting enough light. i let my ph flucuate between 4.9 and 6.5 in hydro. don't fixate on a number. that stresses them more. but the bottom line is without more light (250wHPS minimum imo) your wasting your time

 

[travoutlaw]

move the light 2" above plant replant in bigger pot would be my two suggestions for that plant. ;0 good luck

 

[Ziggaro]

Are you saying you use 2 cups of nutrients for 1 gallon of water?
I'm no hydro man but that would be insane overkill in my soil garden no matter what nutes I used.

Judging from the purple stems and curled leaves, and obviously you've lost a lot of those bottom fan leaves, you have some kind of a nute problem.
Doesn't seem like its too cold in there so I'll rule that out, but it could be a nutrient imbalance or a salt buildup (since as far as I can see there is no drainage, and you nute every watering) causing lockout. I doubt its because you're feeding too little, though, and the PH looks OK.

Also, you need more ventilation than just an open door and a fan. You need some kind of exhaust to replace the stale air, not just blow it around. If you're on a budget u can use a stanley blower fan it cost about 40 bucks at walmart and is plenty for negative pressure in a 400 cubic foot room.

Next, get a pot that is not clear so your roots don't turn green and stop being roots. Roots exposed to lights = trouble.

I think its normal to have some of those dried brown roots, but too much is definitely bad. After 2 months you should have thick white roots circling the bottom 1/4- 1/2 of your container if everything is going OK. The top might have some brown roots from drying out between watering, but you should have much more of the white fluffy kind.

 

[dR. HerbLove]

hey there herblove. what i'm seeing is a plant streching like crazy for the thickness of the stalk. that means your not getting enough light. i let my ph flucuate between 4.9 and 6.5 in hydro. don't fixate on a number. that stresses them more. but the bottom line is without more light (250wHPS minimum imo) your wasting your time

Hi Jammie,

Thanks for your input. I do have a 400W HPS for flowering, but I am using this CFL for the vegetative part. I want her to be healthy before I put it under a more stressful light. The problem is that I am completely failing and now it looks like a gimpish twig. I figure I will leave it under the low heat/intensity light until she's more up to it.

 

[dR. HerbLove]

move the light 2" above plant replant in bigger pot would be my two suggestions for that plant. ;0 good luck

Hello Trav,

So you think it's light stress? When I put my hand between the light and the top of my plant, I can hardly feel any heat emanating from the bulb. As for the re-pot, do you think it's a root bound issue? From what I can see of the roots, there seems to be quite a lot of space left. Also, I specificially used a semi small pot because I only want a final product of a 2 ft plant (due to space constraints). I can repot if that is the cause of my problems though!

 

[Mickymouse]

Iv never done this type of grow I do RDWC so I could be wrong. but I would water more like 2-3 times a day.I have seedling that are in soil that I water twice a day.Double your EC.Give it more light.I start seeds and clones under a 1000w MH with no problem.

 

[dR. HerbLove]

Are you saying you use 2 cups of nutrients for 1 gallon of water?
I'm no hydro man but that would be insane overkill in my soil garden no matter what nutes I used.

Howdie Zigg,

Sorry, I was unclear about my nutrients. I meant that I give the plant 2 cups of soln every feeding. The mixture is 1 teaspoon of each per gallon.

Judging from the purple stems and curled leaves, and obviously you've lost a lot of those bottom fan leaves, you have some kind of a nute problem.
Doesn't seem like its too cold in there so I'll rule that out, but it could be a nutrient imbalance or a salt buildup (since as far as I can see there is no drainage, and you nute every watering) causing lockout. I doubt its because you're feeding too little, though, and the PH looks OK.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I have lost most of my bottom fan leaves! They have all slowly turned yellow and shriveled up. My guess is pH is locking up N? I don't know if it's buildup though. That was one of my initial guesses, but I flushed the shit out of it last time until the water going in was the same as was coming out. What could cause the nutrient imbalance? Improper mixing? I feel fairly confident that I am mixing it right. It's just 1 teaspoon of each, in the right order isn't it?

Also, you need more ventilation than just an open door and a fan. You need some kind of exhaust to replace the stale air, not just blow it around. If you're on a budget u can use a stanley blower fan it cost about 40 bucks at walmart and is plenty for negative pressure in a 400 cubic foot room.

I have an actual grow cabinet that has a ventilation system. I am just using the pantry as my veg area. I feel that there's actually quite a lot of fresh air accessible by my plant as my kitchen as a good draft. I just want her to be stronger so she can thrive in my flower cab (which in fact employs a Stanley blower, just as you've advised!

Next, get a pot that is not clear so your roots don't turn green and stop being roots. Roots exposed to lights = trouble.

I am planning on covering the pot up with alum tape when I feel confident that she's better. I just get so anxious when I can't see what's happening and I have to guess. I figure if I fuck up, at least I can see what happens when I fuck it up and learn from it.

I think its normal to have some of those dried brown roots, but too much is definitely bad. After 2 months you should have thick white roots circling the bottom 1/4- 1/2 of your container if everything is going OK. The top might have some brown roots from drying out between watering, but you should have much more of the white fluffy kind.

Yes, I have drooled aplenty over the hot root porn I've seen here and on other sites. They always get me all pumped up, but then seeing my plant always pops that bubble!

Thanks again for you help!

 

[dR. HerbLove]

I would say your not giving it enough water...Perlite doesn't 'absorb' water, it only wicks it from the resivour. I water mine pretty much everyday since they start out in small containers. I transplant as soon as they slow down and the bottom leaves get a little burned. I've always figured this was because I couldn't water them fast enough and they dried out...


I water when I can't see water..to put it simply

Hello again Shogun!

Since my last grow (which failed) I have been terribly afraid of overwatering. I have been trying to feed just enough to maintain about 25-30% of full bucket saturation. If you look closely at my picture of the perlite, you can see that there is a good deal of condensation on the inside of the pot. That is after 5 days now since the last feeding. Also, the bucket feels far from empty. I wish the plant would use up more water!!! Then I think I wouldn't have a pH problem either.

I think my plan as of right now, is to let her dry out pretty well, then feed her tiny increments of low pH (5.4-5.5) H2O and see if that help. Any thoughts?

 

[dR. HerbLove]

Iv never done this type of grow I do RDWC so I could be wrong. but I would water more like 2-3 times a day.I have seedling that are in soil that I water twice a day.Double your EC.Give it more light.I start seeds and clones under a 1000w MH with no problem.

Hi Mickey,

Thanks for your advice, but from my readings, I was under the impression that if your plant is not doing well that you should roll back on the stressor and not push it. I would love to water her more, but she just doesn't seem to soak up water very fast. I have been watering by weight, and it hardly changes in a day.

 

[dR. HerbLove]

Full bucket saturation??? Condensation? Those words are completely irrelevant here. Perlite doesn't absorb water, it cannot be overwatered as long as you have a hole on the side. If you can't see any water in the bottom (at least with me) then the plants are hours away from showing damage.

I'd start over.....Once a plant gets damaged in my garden, its thrown out and replaced with another clone and a lesson is learned.

Hi Shogun,

I consider the bucket at "full saturation" when I feed it to the point the that it starts to drain. I figure that is the max amount of H2O that the bucket can hold and can consider it at its heaviest. When I filled up the bucket with just dry perlite and it was featherlight, I consider that completely empty. Even after 5 days, the pot is still nowhere close to empty. I'd say that it is still about 35% of it's max weight. I understand that your plants are very vigorous thirsty and I want my plants to be there, but right now it's just not taking up very much water.

I mentioned the condensation, because that has to indicate that there's still moisture in the pot, no? I figure it's because the water in that was soaked up in the perlite is trying to evaporate away, which means there's still accessible water.

I definitely do not have the experience that you guys do, but from what I've read and seen, I don't think that underwatering is a problem.

As for throwing it out, I would do that, but if I did that now, I would not have learnt a lesson. I cannot learn from my mistakes until I know what I did wrong and I still have no idea!

I do very much appreciate your help!

 

[hazy]

Nutes in the medium concentrate as the medium dries. Also, the salt ions, which have disassociated into usable form for the plants will reassociate into undesirable things, that the plant can't use. This means nutes are no longer available, esp. stuff like calcium, which gets bound up in unusable forms. And the lowest leaves on your plant look like they were a bit burnt and had maybe some calcium issues,(the brown spotting). Now that you're flushed and all good, you just have to wait. Hempys are supposed to be watered every day or two. I water mine daily. Also, you might put some vermiculite in it.
Trouble with these problems is that they stunt growth, and it takes a lot to grow out of it. Esp under low light.
You should go ahead and flip that thing and get it over with, unless it's some really good stuff you want to try to keep and clone.
Next time go with a green bottle. You can see the roots, but they won't get hurt by the light. Maybe a bigger container too.

 

[Ziggaro]

yeah whatever you do don't throw it out unless you physically break it at the soil line
i've never had a "failed harvest" although some pretty ugly plants with no leaves left just bud!
always got some good smoke though


just remember its always a learning experience

 

[SlowCalaToker]

I am running hempys in small cups (22 oz.) I am not sure what is going on with yours. I am not bothering to check pH, I checked it the first two times I brewed up my solution and am using the same formula so I know it's not shifting. I will do it again when I switch to bloom ratios. Hit the link in my sig and see if you can figure out what might be going on with yours by taking a peek at what I'm doing. I have read both horror stories and fantastic grows on the hempys. I have been lucky enough to not be having problems.

Sorry your baby isn't doing well....

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Looks like magnesium deficiency. People always talk about N-P-K which are just the primary nutrients, the secondary nutrients are needed too, and they are Magnesium, Calcium and Sulphur. The trace nutrients are copper, iron, zinc, etc.

Considering all the removed fan leaves, and the fact that the remaining damage is done to the leaf tips and serrated edges, you're talking about a deficiency in a mobile nutrient - like magnesium.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Also, you're using distilled water, which is excellent, but you have to take into account that it has the calcium and magnesium taken out. (Same kind of issues when using a soil that contains a lot of coco coir.)

And you should get an EC meter to measure your nutrient concentration.

 

[BigGreen]

I keep mine around 6.2 every watering from clone to veg to flower. I would also suggest adding vermiculite next time. I use floranova grow for veg and nova bloom for flower. Its very simple I would be giving them around 1 tsp per gallon or roughly 600 ppm at your stage. Just keep the ph at 6.2 the entire time every watering. Check these out and check out my grow to see hempys from start to now 14 days 12/12.

 

[dR. HerbLove]

I am running hempys in small cups (22 oz.) I am not sure what is going on with yours. I am not bothering to check pH, I checked it the first two times I brewed up my solution and am using the same formula so I know it's not shifting. I will do it again when I switch to bloom ratios. Hit the link in my sig and see if you can figure out what might be going on with yours by taking a peek at what I'm doing. I have read both horror stories and fantastic grows on the hempys. I have been lucky enough to not be having problems.

Sorry your baby isn't doing well....

Hello SlowCala;

Thanks for your input. I checked out your link and am very jealous!!! Your plants seem to be doing very well and your whole setup is so simple. My plants still looks exactly the same as in the pictures from a week ago. WTF? Zero growth. I just cannot figure out what is wrong. I still suspect pH problems, but there doesn't seem to be a clear answer as to what my pH should be. Some say 5.8 and some say 6.2. Which is it?

 

[dR. HerbLove]

Looks like magnesium deficiency. People always talk about N-P-K which are just the primary nutrients, the secondary nutrients are needed too, and they are Magnesium, Calcium and Sulphur. The trace nutrients are copper, iron, zinc, etc.

Considering all the removed fan leaves, and the fact that the remaining damage is done to the leaf tips and serrated edges, you're talking about a deficiency in a mobile nutrient - like magnesium.

TanzanianMagic;

Thanks for giving me some different ideas! I have been warned about cal/mag defs since I'm using distilled, but I bought the FloraMicro that is made for soft water so I think I should be covered. Perhaps it is a mag def, but due to lockout? What pH do you aim for? Also, I use a Hanna Combo meter for my pH and PPM.

Here's the labels of my nutes:

FloraMicro
http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=6939&pictureid=115685

FloraGro
http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=6939&pictureid=115686

FLoraBloom
http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=6939&pictureid=115687