help with new 220v 15a breaker installation, and wiring to outlet

[Zarezhu]

Hey guys. Instead of paying my electrician his $150 minimum for a 5-10 minute job, I've decided I'm gonna tackle it myself.

I've got a 50 amp sub panel, and I need to install a 15a 220v circuit for my 230/208v 15a 24kbtu Breeze mini split.

Since the ac plug is a three pronged plug, I only need THREE wires, correct? Both hots, and the ground? Can I avoid the neutral bus bar completely for this circuit?

The plug on my air handler, which is the only plug for the whole unit, is a 230/208v plug, which has the horizontal orientation of the hots (opposed to the 220v plugs on my ballasts, that have the vertical -.- plugs).


The breaker install seems really straight forward. I need a double pole 15A 220v breaker to pop into my sub panel, correct?

I'm about to go to home depot to buy my breaker, my receptacle, my receptacle cover, and my 10 gauge wire for my circuit. I already have a large roll of 8 gauge wire, could I use it for both hots and my ground, or is it a bad idea to go overkill on wire sizing?

Other than that, I'm confident in the install. I'm only wiring the plug a few feet from the panel. I know how to attach the 2 hots and the ground to the receptacle, and I'm also aware of how to screw both hots into the breaker and the ground to the ground bus bar.

I will also use a voltage tester to verify the outlet is getting 220v, prior to plugging my brand new and gorgeous 24k btu mini.

Thanks for the help in advance guys!

 

[J-zee]

Edit: Most inportant !!! If it calls for a GFCi or GFI ( ground fault current interupter ) same thing thats in ur bathroom with red n blk buttons but in ur case ud have to do it st the breaker, price went up part #
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-15-Amp-Double-Pole-BR-Type-GFI-Breaker-GFCB215CS/202275987/
The combo gfci and afci will hella work if u have to go with a gfi and the white wire bmfrom the breaker goes in ur sub nuetral bus
You have done ur home work, just turn off yhe breaker that feeds that 5o amp sub panel ur installing. Bring a breaker from the 50 smp sub with u so u can match the bsck of it if the dont carry that brand. N use the 10 awg ( 30 amp rated as long as ur under a hundred foot) the 8 awg is gonna be a super pain in the ass to feed into that recp, n make sure the recp u buy is rated at 250 volt, it eill have 2 gold screws and a green one and say 250 volt.

Did i say turn the power off to the 2 pole 50 amp breaker that FEEDS the panel u r installing ur new breaker in.

Ditch the number eight wire, and plz for the love of electricty don't cut strands off the cable if it doesnt fit

 

[J-zee]

If u want to make it it ez for the next guy to work on grab a roll of red and grn tape to mark ur wires. Do it befire install so dont have to guess if u use sll 3 runs of the same size wire, but u can down side ur ground twice but in ur case run all of it in ten and grab a romex connector or two to hold one to the wire as it comes out of ur sub panl and wher it goes in ur steel box that ur gona buy, dont forget 2 plastic half ince bushings for those romex connectors so u have a smooth surface for the wire to go over when u go out ur sub and in ur new STEEL box.
Jz

 

[J-zee]

Il net u the dick bags that sold it they want u to put hot to a 120 recp to make it work as 240. Id rater cut there molded plug off n by a male and recp all i

 

[LargePrime]

Hey guys. Instead of paying my electrician his $150 minimum for a 5-10 minute job, I've decided I'm gonna tackle it myself.

You probably are gonna want someone to eyeball your work.

Since the ac plug is a three pronged plug, I only need THREE wires, correct? Both hots, and the ground? Can I avoid the neutral bus bar completely for this circuit?

The neutral bus bar and the ground are the same. Tell no one i told you.
yes, you will have 2 110V hots (220 between them), and a ground only.

The plug on my air handler, which is the only plug for the whole unit, is a 230/208v plug, which has the horizontal orientation of the hots (opposed to the 220v plugs on my ballasts, that have the vertical -.- plugs).

this is confusing. Which plug is |.| and which is -.- ?

The breaker install seems really straight forward. I need a double pole 15A 220v breaker to pop into my sub panel, correct?

yes. you need a double pole breaker.
I think your panel is wired weird. can you lable the pic?

I'm about to go to home depot to buy my breaker, my receptacle, my receptacle cover, and my 10 gauge wire for my circuit. I already have a large roll of 8 gauge wire, could I use it for both hots and my ground, or is it a bad idea to go overkill on wire sizing?

This is a 15A circuit, right? you could just run the 15A circuit with 14-2 or 12-2. you dont need anything more.

Other than that, I'm confident in the install. I'm only wiring the plug a few feet from the panel. I know how to attach the 2 hots and the ground to the receptacle, and I'm also aware of how to screw both hots into the breaker and the ground to the ground bus bar.

I don't think your panel is wired right.

 

[rives]

The neutral bus bar and the ground are the same. Tell no one i told you.

In a sub-panel, the neutral buss bar and the ground busses are separate entities, and there should not be a jumper from the neutral buss to ground - it is "floated" at this point (in a main panel, the neutral buss and the ground buss share duty, and there is a bonding screw or jumper that ties the buss to the enclosure). Combining the two functions in a sub can lead to ground loops, which will raise hell with sensitive electronics and make your stereo hum.

I don't see anything obviously wrong with the panel other than the wires feeding the busses should have been phase-taped to indicate their function - green on the ground buss, white on the neutral buss, and one of the hot legs should be marked with red.

 

[Zarezhu]

Thanks for chiming in everybody!

The subpanel was installed by a licensed electrician, and as him and I will be the only two people to ever use/tinker with the subpanel, I guess he assumed we didn't need the tape. The ground bus bar is to the left with the bare copper wire, and the neutral bus bar has the white wire on the right hand side.

The 50a breaker goes to an intermatic timer for the lights. The 20a breaker goes to the 4 120v wall outlets. I will also run a large/very heavy duty extension cord from the house, so I can tap into another 15a 120v circuit to complete my first harvest (4kw, 15a ac, 6.6.a dehu, 5a humidifier, and all fans). I will only be pulling 40a max at the subpanel.

It's roughly a 100' run of 8 gauge thhn rated at 90c, which has max rated amps = 55 (not accounting for voltage drop).

After the first harvest, I will upgrade the main panel, and run a new line, and upgrade my subpanel to 100 amps.

I also called Friedrich and they assured me that only the 12k breeze has a l.l male (which is the unit in the video that they're installing, leading to my confusion), and that my 24k breeze Is indeed -.- (standard 220)

I also asked Friedrich if I needed to install a service disconnect outside, near the condenser (I guess that's standard code). They told me I can just wire my outlet inside, near the air handler, and plug right in and good to go. The sub panel is inside and a mere few feet away from were the air handler/plug will be for the ac, and the breaker can act as a service disconnect.

I'm going to do the circuit job today, as I'm extremely confident in it now and how the free time. I'll post pictures as I go! I bought a small roll of 10/2 for the circuit, 2 hots and a ground.

My only question right now, is in regards to the 15a 2 pole breaker. The end that slides over the two raised poles or whatever they're called, has some oil/goop in it. This is normal, correct? I don't have to remove it prior to popping the breaker in place? To me it seems like its probably there to ensure a tight fit and make sure the electricity travels to the breaker properly, but I figured I'd make sure. All the breakers at HomeDepot had the goop in the ends.

 

[rives]

The markings are required by code, not simply as a convenience option.

Unless you are using some downstream protection between the Intermatic and your lighting, you have a potentially dangerous situation. I would bet that your cordsets and receptacles for your lights are rated at 20a at the most, and probably less - the 50a feed to the Intermatic can easily immolate them. It would be a pretty simple matter to take the switched feed from the Intermatic and power a small sub-panel, breaking the circuits down to 15 or 20 amp level and then powering your lighting with the appropriate protection in place.

The "goop" that you are referring to is probably Aluminox, Petrox, or the equivalent to keep oxygen away from an aluminum buss and degrading the connection.

 

[Zarezhu]

Ahh I see. The electrician popped the 50a there just because its what he had on hand. , it was originaly gonna be a 30a breaker that was gonna have 4 1kw digital ballasts on the circuit (4.2a per ballast is just under 17a on the circuit) ts got 8ga wire going to the intermatic, possibly 10ga as he used his own wire so im not positive. The intermatic goes to two double duplexboutlets, each one with i think 12-2 or 10-2 romex. He said 15 max amps per double duplex outlet, and I ony intend to use 2 1kw 4.2a ballasts per double duplex outlet. Is this a problem currebtly? Ive obly gott 1 light running right now, soon to be 4.

If its simple to hookup another subpanel after the intermatic, Im willing to do it also, unless what i have now is perfectly fine

 

[rives]

All of the components from the circuit breaker, through the Intermatic, the subsequent wiring, the 15a receptacles and your lights are all "protected" at 50 amps.

Yes, it's a problem currently.

 

[Zarezhu]

So youre saying its possible for the juice going through the 50a breaker (even though its only 17-18a thats 'supposed' to be drawing from it) to go to the intermatic, and then to the receptacles at the end of the circuits, and a power surge/spike or something makes it all of a sudden draw 20-25-30a, And then obviously heat up the outlet/receptacle and possibly cause a fire? Or fry my ballasts/bulbs?

And the solution would be to install another sub panel, after the intermatic timer, with a 15a 220v breaker per circuit/double duplex outlet/2 ballasts. This woukd be proper overcurrent protection?

Yu also recommend me changing the 50a to a 30a, or would it be pointless if I install the additional subpanel?

Appreciate the tips! I want everything as legit as possible so I'll make the effort to do it proper. Ive been researching it all as much as possible already, I love learning about these things.

 

[Lyfespan]

Rives is saying that when that small wire starts burning, that that 50 amp breaker isn't gonna pop at the ~20 % like the correct sized breaker would.

Breaker size too big for wire= bad
Wire size too big for breaker= doesn't matter.

 

[Lyfespan]

Breakers and wire have a size relation for capacity that the wire has and the load a breaker can supply.

 

[rives]

When a short circuit takes place, the current spikes to whatever level the circuit can supply. This can easily be in the hundreds of amps until something melts down (providing the fuse action) if there is nothing else limiting the current. If you look at the link attached for the time-current curves for GE breakers, a brand new, fully-in-spec breaker can supply 200% of it's rated current for up to 100 seconds, 300% for 30 seconds, etc.

This means that in your existing installation, if you have a ballast or cord short out, the 50a breaker could provide 100 amps for over a minute and a half, or 150 amps for 30 seconds.

Yes, a small sub-panel would cure this - use the 50a circuit as the feeder to the sub and use the breakers in the sub to protect each of the downstream circuits. Don't exceed 80% of the breaker size for continuous loading - for example, if you use 15a breakers, keep your circuit load to 12 amps or less if the load is going to be on for more than 3 hours.

Changing the breaker out to a 30a is unnecessary if you do this providing you use wire rated for at least 50a between the Intermatic and the sub. However, if you are using the Intermatic "T" series timers, I think that they are all rated for 40 amps, not 50.

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/GES-9884?TNR=Time Current Curves|GES-9884|generic

 

[Zarezhu]

I think hes saying that even if I had a smaller breaker, theres no further protction down the line, past the internatic timer. Basically, that all four ballasts are on the same larger circuit, and its better to break them up into smaller circuits after the intermatic timer; furthermore, because the receptacles and wires are only rated at 20 amps, any surges or spikes can start a fire without popping the breaker prompty.

I think too big of a wire will also cause problems, because the resistance will be greater, and it will heat up (wgatever it connects to) more than its supposed to be heated up to, possibly melting the connection/causing a fire

 

[Zarezhu]

Can I keep the 50a to the intermatic, and run the intermatic out to a subpanel? Keeping the sub panel on a 12/12 timer?

Or do I need to run the 50a breaker to a sub panel, and then use an internatic for each cicuit on that panel?

 

[Zarezhu]

Ill make sure to find out what my intermatic is rated for, and run large enough wires to the subpanel feeding the circuits for the ballasts. Ill use 15a 220 breakers per 2 ballasts.

Another thing I should mention, is the main panel has a 50a 220 that feeds the sub panel thats pictures. Its roughly a 100' run. This would trip prior to the 50a in the subpanel tripping Id imagine, because theres will be the additional load from the 120v 20a circuit on it as well

 

[rives]

Too large of wire is not a problem as far as resistance goes - resistance gets less with larger wire. It may cause problems with not fitting into devices that are rated for lower amperage, though.

You can keep the large circuit to the Intermatic and break it down afterwards with the sub-panel, switching the entire sub on/off with the timer.

What model Intermatic are you using? I haven't seen one that was rated for 50 amps.

*whoops* posting while you were. Yes, that is probably why the 50a in the main tripped first. Dropping the Intermatic feed to a 40a should help that problem.

 

[Zarezhu]

Havent had any trips yet, but Ive barely been running any load so far.

Its a t104, rated for 40 amps. Ill swap my 50 out for a 40.

I can purchase any sub panel as long as it has the spots to pop in enough 15a 220 breakers, yeah?

 

[rives]

Yes. It would be a good idea to match the manufacturer to your other panels so that the breakers interchange. I prefer GE panels because they have copper busses.