help with insects

[phillykid]

Hey guys, I've got 5 THS bubble gums, 5 sensi Mother's finest about 3 wks old in BOG's soil mix (sams choice + 20% perlite, bone meal, blood meal, and lime) I've given 1 half str feed with pure blend grow, plus rhizotonic and cannazyme. These are under a 400 MH.

Right from the beginning the MF showed some spots that turned yellowish, brownish, I thought the cannazyme might have caused it because I used it when they were really young at 1:400 dilution (thought it may have been overfert). now I find out that I have an insect problem (white longish thin bugs, and maybe some spider mites as I see round white eggs, I also notice some shininess which i think is some residue left from an insect) they've really gotten outta control since it took so long for me to find out what was wrong. I've sprayed them once with a schultz insecticide (pyretherin based .02%) and I've been spraying them with a dish detergent, water, hydrogen peroxide spray daily. The MF look pretty bad but some of the BGs haven't been hit too badly yet. I notice that the new growth has the leaves curled downwards (like ram horns) on all the plants. Is this curling due to insect damage (I don't see necrosis spots yet on young leaves) or is it due to my spray? How should I proceed with treatment? I'm planning on using the insecticide once a week (could I use it more often or would it burn them?) and I'll mist with the soapy water daily. It's been a bit hot, and my area is a bit dry (80-90 F temp, 35% humidity).

Thanks

 

[Vapour]

Identify the bugs accurately before treating. You may well find the treatment you use is useless. Track those bugs and get them identified, then treat for them. Work sequencially through your problems and you will solve them quicker.

 

[mybeans420]

you have a couple problems there phillykid,
first things first, your temps are too high, and humidity a little low. the humidity issue will probably resolve itself once you take care of the temp issue. next the curling on your leaves can be caused by a couple of things. over watering, overferting, lock up caused by ph problem.
most likely its overferting. if you are using bogs mix you shouldnt have to fertilize for the first couple weeks. oh something just occured to me. did you start your seeds in that mix. if so it's too rich for them. seeds should be started in an unfertilized mix as they are very sensitive to a soil thats too rich.
lets have some more details and we'll see if we can't get you straightened out there.
i'll keep an eye out for your reply

 

[phillykid]

I started them without the bone and blood meal. I just transplanted after 2 weeks, I only used the rhizotonic and cannazyme for the first 2 weeks. I used a 1/2 teaspoon per gallon pure blend grow at the end of the third week at around day 20 or so. It could be overwater since I just transplanted into 2 gallon pots and watered them really well. pH is a little lower than 7.

The pyritherin insecticide is supposed to be useful for spidermites, whiteflys, aphids, thrips, and some others.

I can't do anything about the temps, it's been in the 90's round here lately. The fan I use for extraction is already on the high setting, I put a fan directly on the bulb also set at high, I'm using those dual window fan thingies for both intake and exhaust (one of intake one for extraction) both are set on high. And I'm running the ac in the adjacent room all the time. Other than moving to a different location, or rigging up some total environmental control (not possible on my budget) I can't do too much more. i could get a cheap ac and just stick it in the room, But I'm afraid the humidity will drop even more.

I'm just growin a personal stash so If I'm gonna spend thousands and thousands to get full environmental control, I might as well just buy my weed.

I'm thinking it might be overwatering cause I'm spraying the leaves with water and soap and H2O2 soln daily to try to control the pest problem. but the pots really aren't that heavy compared to a fully watered pot.
Peace
PK

 

[mybeans420]

for climate on a budget try this:

2 timers grounded (15 min increments)

a/c you mentioned

now put your fans on the timers to come on for 15 minutes and of for 15 minutes. this way more of your cool air is staying in your room from the a/c. gives it a chance to drop the temp a few degrees. you could save energy by hooking the a/c up to a thermostat. but it's not required. an oscillating fan, however, is.
use it to keep the air in the room circulating.
if you were considering getting an a/c the extra 40-50 bucks would be worth it. it's not the best but it could work.
why not get the timers and experiment with a/c you already have?

 

[phillykid]

So what you're saying is that I should put the 2 fans (intake/exhaust) on timers? So by 2 timers you mean one for the light and one for the fans or 1 for each fan? (I have plenty of surge protectors so I could just put the fans on one protector hooked up to the timer). I thought most AC units have an internal thermostat?

Here's a little more detail:
I have a 4X7ft closet, I'm using about half for veg then I'll use the whole thing when i go to flower with my 1000 watt HPS. The top of the closet has an opening into the attic space of the apartment complex so I'm exhausting out there. i live in an apartment so the AC I have now, I can't move it since it's built into the wall, I also can't cut a hole to the outside from the closet (it's an apartment) so I wouldn't be able to draw air form there for the AC. I could just buy a cheap ac and put it directly in the room (but it'd just be cycling the air in there) actually I don't even know if this would work.

I could put the ac where the intake fan is and draw air from the inside of the apartment into the closet (it'd be a bitch to move everyday to access the closet though).

what do ya think?

Thanks for the advice.
Peace
PK

 

[phillykid]

Oh, I'm also thinking about getting a flea bomb and just letting it go off for 2 hours to really just kill all the insects. If I hadn't waited so long before finding the problem a few applications of pyritherin spray might be enough but even with the single application a few days ago, followed by soapy water spray daily I'm still noticing more damage day by day. I'm still in early veg so buds won't get tarnished by the insect poisons. I could stop by a pet store tomorrow to get the flea bomb.

 

[mybeans420]

for now i would suggest an insecticidal soap. until you have identified xactly what your pest is. are the white bugs flying?
if this is the case then they are most likely whiteflies. as far as mites are concerned, if you have a decent magnifying glass you should be able to spot them on your leaves. also look for small yellowish white spots about the size of a pinhead as these are an indication of mites also. the eggs you mentioned, what size are they? if you are not familiar with insect pests either take some specimens to a local garden center and ask them what you have. just tell them that your vegetable garden is infested.
or you could just get a book on insect pests.
a more detailed description here would go a long way
whatever you do DON'T BOMB!!! this will kill your plants for sure.
bombs are meant to be used between crops.

now, regarding climate, you could certainly put both fans on a single timer using a power strip. what i'm suggeting is this.
(first regarding the a/c thermostat. most do have one but i find them to be unreliable) you want to set the thermostat to 77 or 78 degrees. you can then leave the ac running constantly as it will turn itself off when it gets to that point.
i would really suggest getting a 265cfm sqirrel cage blower for extraction (about 70 bucks) but if all you can swing for now is the fans you have then they'll have to do. if you can get the 265 before flowering then DO IT!! your girls will thank you. of course since your in an apartment then you will want to suspend the blower from a bungee cord. this will reduce vibrations and noise.
ok so you fans will be on for 15 min then 0ff 15 min. this will give you the air exchange you need while still allowing the a/c to do it's job without having to work too much. i mentioned before that you will need an oscillating fan in the room to keep the air moving.
the /ac should be in the room but positioned so that the cool air doesnt blow directly on your girls. the a/c will need to be elevated so you can place a container to catch the water that condenses on the unit.
how tall is the room? 8 feet i'll assume but correct me if i'm wrong
in this case, train your plants to be short in stature but bushy. put them on a table and the ac under the table on a milk crate.

so in short i suggest you aquire the following:
a/c
timers
oscillating fan
blower (if you get this then it alone would help to reduce your heat issue if you use it to air cool your light)
thermostat
insect book
insecticidal soap

this is a budget setup, and you would really do yourself a world of good to spring for the blower
if you have any questions let me know


ps what kind of damage are you still noticing??? further details will help me determine if it's actually the bugs causing it or a enviomental factor. you might have overferted.

 

[Vapour]

mb420's advice is good but if taking bugs to the garden centre please do so in a glass, sealed container. I hate it when people bring bugs and then i take them home to my orchids!

 

[mybeans420]

very good point vapour

very good point vapour

i can't believe i forgot to mention that!! i worked at a garden center for years and i hated it when people brought in twigs or leaves covered in bugs. i guess being away from the job so long has caused me to slip a little

 

[phillykid]

Okay, so I'm glad I didn't bomb em.
I have had an oscillating fan on them from day 1. The stems are really thick already and I keep that fan going all the time.

I see some thin longish white things and when I put my finger near them they fly away. They are visible with the naked eye but only a few mm long.
I use a 30X loupe but I still can't make out good detail of the bugs, like I can't tell if I'm looking at a spider mite or a piece of soil. The lab I work out has a disceting scope so I may just cut a leaf and put it in a jar then take a look at it.....I think the electron microscope we have is a little too powerful lol.

I do see some small whitish dots that dot the leaf surface which is what first made me think I have insects. I also noticed that the Mother's finest seemed to be hit hardest, but then these dots started appearing on other plants nearby, the nearer the plant the more damage it has. Older growth has more of these spots and larger spots, some of the fan leaves are pretty much dead at this point. The leaves that got hit hard are now crispy feeling with a large portion of dead tissue, younger leaves exhibit extreme downward curl "hooking" and are getting a little brittle. The spots on the leaves that have been hit the hardest are now yellow instead fo white.
The eggs (at least that's what I think they are) are about this size of these periods . . . Maybe a tiny bit bigger, some are more white, others are more transleucent. i notice some "honey dew" on the leaves as well, this stuff is kinda shimery, and sticky.

As for the AC, I can't just put it in the room, window A/C units cool air, but exhaust the hot air in the opposite direction, so I'd get hot air coming out one side, and cold out the other.

the reason why I'm thinking it's not overfert is that plants on one side are affected, there is a linear relationship with the distance from these plants and the amount of damage, the leaves are fairly close together so i thought that insects from one plant were moving across the garden systematically. It could be a combination of heat stress (although I've grown other plants before and the temps got into the 90's regularly and they didn't show this kinda damage. The yield was probably reduced but I still pulled plenty of good bud.) and overfert and insects. I'm gonna check pH again tonight. I've only had a problem with overfert once, it was Bogglegum and I gave it 1/2 str pureblend grow at 2 weeks which is why I waited 3 weeks this time and it was a bit less than 1/2 str.

Could it possibly be some kind of disease that's spreading? I don't think it'd be mold cause like I said, my humidity is low, around 40 range. Plus there is a lot of circulating air in there, I'm running 4 fans. 2 oscillating, 1 intake, 1 exhaust.
Where do you think I might be able to find that blower? home depot?

Thanks for all the help
Peace
PK

 

[Guest]

Shit that's a great idea mybeans about suspending the blower on bungee's. I'm going to get the ladder...

 

[buddyJesus]

this tip kills any bug, maybe not the eggs but kills em all.

soak a cigarette in a mason jar full of water overnight and then strain out the solid tobacco. The tea from this can be diluted and put into a spray bottle and apply over the entire plant. it kills bugs on contact and if the spray dries it will still kill bugs when they bite into the plant if you sprayed where they bite. Two or three treatments over a two week period kill all pests. This kills beneficial insects also though.

 

[Pactivist]

sounds like thrips

sounds like thrips

Hey phillykid, it sounds like, from your description, that you might have thrips. Having dealt effectively with these little bastards before, let me tell you what worked for me. I am a fully organic medium scale grower using a closet not much bigger than yours, so here is what I did. Before my plants went into budding I noticed the thrips, with the little white spots, and slime trails they leave on the leaves. I did not panic, I just shot them with a pyrethrum bug spray, which will kill the adults and larva, but misses the eggs that are in the soil. now for the eggs, I used a neem oil soil drench three times in succession, just before watering (the watering after drives the neem deeper into the container) to keep any hatching eggs from reaching maturity.

Now as to prevention. first do you have any pets? my thrips were brought into my room by the family cat, who has since left us, so that is taken care of. Do you have any openings directly to the outside? this is another way that they can get in. and lastly if the bugs in your area are bad, I would suggest that you change clothes before going into your room, as you might be carrying them in yourself.

Blowers can be had quite cheaply if you shop around, I purchased a 500cfm blower to use for extraction, on ebay for $40.00 plus shipping. by adding that to my room I have eliminated pretty much all heat and humidity problems, and my girls look much happier.
p.s. blower on a bungee huh? gotta try that one
p.p.s. yeah phillykid, sounds like thrips from your description of the bugs and the damage, and they do not usually fly away even though they have wings, they tend to jump like fleas. peAce pacT