Help me! Upgrading, 400->1200W+ (soil)

[KMK0420]

So i have been thinking this over and over, and have some major questions before i make the leap in a couple months. LONG read, so only people with experience in higher wattages/grows please reply - i need SERIOUS input here, not stoned guesses (well, you can be stoned. thats ok. ;-) )

Currently growing under a 400watt CMH/HPS

I haven't even harvested yet, but in these trying times in today's world, a lot of people know me as a "source" for truly good weed. On that note, I want to upgrade.


I have a room that is available to me in a few months, but i have MANY questions even though i'm already completing my first grow. I'll have 1 or two more grows before i make the move to the bigger system, but i need some serious feedback from people who do straight soil grows.

- Electricity. Most residential homes in my area (or at the minimum the house i'll be doing this in) are on 20A circuits per level. This severely limits my capabilities. My question with this...we have our 3rd floor on a 30A circuit which holds my 400W + computer + small refrigerator + tv + air conditioner, etc, without a hitch. I have a feeling though i'm pushing it. I talked to an electrician, and most everyone says going past a 20A circuit is not feasible in a residential environment. Question 1. Can i have an electrician upgrade the current 20A circuit to a 30 or 40, and what is involved with that? Is it SUPER expensive for just 1 circuit to be updated? I know the outlets themselves need replaced either way, but i want to make sure i'm not worrying about fire hazards or clipping by consuming too much on one circuit.

- Wattage. My goal will be to harvest a minimum of 2lbs per harvest (or every 4 months roughly). From what i hear, a minimum of 1000W is required. What i was considering is for vegetative & seedling growth is the CMH. They do not make anything above 400, so i figured get (2) 400W HPS ballasts, grow from seed to flower with the CMH then convert over to (2) 600W HPS ballasts for a total of 1200watts in flowering. This would theoretically produce me, at best, 1200grams and at minimum, 600 grams.

Most people get more than .5g/watt, and i see the average (with good growing skills) is around .8-1.0. Question 2. Would 1200W be sufficient to grab up 2 p's a harvest, or would i be better off with 2 1000's? Reason i say 600's is many people say 1000s produce a ton of heat, 600s would be less of a hassle with heat AND save me money on electricity and i wouldn't have to upgrade even further to support 2k+ watts.

- Environment. Room is roughly 7ft x 11ft. In my little 400W tent i have a 265CFM fan & carbon filter for air exchange and odor control. What sort of thing am i looking at as far as airflow required? 600, 800CFM? What kind of carbon filter for smell? Would Co2 be required?

That's another concern. I will be sealing the room off for security purposes (IE, black out the window and keep door shut at all times.) even though nobody will live with me more than likely at that time. Being that's the case, how will i exchange the air for fresh air? I can't constantly recycle the same air in the room obviously...there has to be some sort of way for a sealed room to exchange air without it interfering with other parts of the house (IE, having ducting running out of the door etc). I know heat will be a concern so i'll get a portable A/C for this. Also, a lot of people say Co2 is really not worth it and can cause more problems than it solves. I've seen many dank bud grows go through without co2. Input -> Best fan & filter for that size grow? How to exchange air in a sealed room without noticeable effects outside of the growroom (ie, smell emanating throughout home)

Seeds/Clones/etc. My first couple grows will be straight from seed. I already see the benefit in picking a mother and just cloning her to save money on seeds. BUT, that may not be possible as i have NO CLUE on cloning, nor do i know how to keep a mother for cloning use, etc. I know there are dozens of threads on here about it but nothing really breaks it down for dummies like myself new to growing.

At any rate, i obviously only want females. Assuming a 50/50 ratio of males to females, how many seeds should i start out, and how many females would be necessary in that size (7ftx11ft) room in roughly 5-10gal buckets to produce my end result (2p's)?

I started 8 seeds in my tent and luckily ended with 4 females. This is going to produce me, from what most people say, 5-10 ounces but can vary so dramatically i can get 4-14ounces depending on technique, luck, strain, lighting, feeding, etc.

Medium (I was thinking go straight FFOF as this is a tried and tested soil many growers use with good results (myself included). Hydro is out of the picture as i want to master soil before i move there, not to mention i don't have the willpower to learn that type of system. I figure that combined with pH control, FloraNova Nutes, and i should be good. I hear coco is good but too hard to control watering regimen, feeding regimen, etc, because it is such a light medium and doesnt really have anything in it per se.


I am typing up a list of required equipment, and so far i have (Please feel free to make recommendations on better/cheaper/more efficient equipment:

Equipment Required:

- (2) 600W Ballasts (HPS) @ 135.00 x2
- (2) 400W Ballasts (CMH) @ 115.00 x2

- (2) 600W HPS Bulbs @ 75.00
- (2) 400W CMH Bulbs @ 52.00

- Can Fan 66 Combo (http://htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=51673) @ 450.00

- Oscillating fans for air movement inside grow room

- Portable A/c
(http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/active-air-portable-air-conditioner-p-2458.html)

K+ to those who contribute valuable info! Thanks guys!!

 

[KMK0420]

come on I know someone wants to get all stoned and answer all my questions

 

[masterKahn]

why so many lights? you want a pound every two months and at 1gram per watt a single 1000hps could do this. I would suggest two air cooled 1000hps. You need to find a good mother and get to work cloning. Cloning isn't that hard you'll get the hang of it.

Your 400CMH should be good for a veg mother area. Get a nice 6" inline fan to air cool your hoods and that should help ALOT. You only need CO2 if you want to but thats alot more investment and room sealing to do I would just do with out it for now.

FFoF with some perlite should do just fine for you but to grow some nice trees under your big lights you need 4-7 gallon pots and how ever many you can fit under your lights. Thats alot of soil and alot of rootballs to get rid of.

 

[KMK0420]

why so many lights? you want a pound every two months and at 1gram per watt a single 1000hps could do this. I would suggest two air cooled 1000hps. You need to find a good mother and get to work cloning. Cloning isn't that hard you'll get the hang of it.

Your 400CMH should be good for a veg mother area. Get a nice 6" inline fan to air cool your hoods and that should help ALOT. You only need CO2 if you want to but thats alot more investment and room sealing to do I would just do with out it for now.

FFoF with some perlite should do just fine for you but to grow some nice trees under your big lights you need 4-7 gallon pots and how ever many you can fit under your lights. Thats alot of soil and alot of rootballs to get rid of.

Thanks for your input!

But wouldn't 2 1000's be overkill for 2 p's?

And a lot of people say unless you master a technique, 1g/watt is tough to acquire...

 

[PharmaCan]

For all intents and purposes, the amperage of your circuit is going to be limited by the size of the wire in your wall. You can't just upsize both ends of a circuit, i.e. the breaker and the receptacle, and think that that is going to work. If you want to have a circuit with higher amperage, you need to install bigger wires. In most cases, the major cost in installing a new circuit is the labor and most of the labor is in getting a wire from your main panel to your room. As you get into increasingly larger wires and breakers, the cost difference is not that great among the incremental steps. So, there wouldn't be that much of a price difference between installing a new 20 amp circuit or a new 40 amp circuit, or two new 20 amp circuits. The labor (major cost) is about the same and the materials are just a little more expensive as you get into bigger or more.

You should talk to an electrician in your area and get a price.

On another note, one 400w is about all the vegging light you need to keep up with two bloom lights. Personally I'd go for two 1k's for your flower. I have 1k's & 600's and the 600's just don't penetrate as well as the 1k's. I get bigger, heavier buds with the 1k's.

PC

 

[masterKahn]

1000 watt lights cost almost the same as 600's more light is always better you have the room. That way you can get .5 gram per watt on 2000watts and hit your goal. Turn any extra of .5 gram per watt into hash or eat it. I'm sure you will find a use for it

 

[KMK0420]

Okay, so 2 1000's may be the choice.

AFA air cooling...what kinda fan will i need to be exhausting the room/cooling the hoods and how would you air cool a sealed room/exchange fresh air if you can't have it open all the time?

 

[milehighmedical]

I have 2 1k's but I run a/c which pulls 700-800 watts. I'd do two 600s because you can still pull cllose to 1k's but so much less heat and power consumption. You can def get 2 p's of 2 600's. No prob. Only reason I have 2 1000's is because I like the penetration in my trees. 3-4 ft before 12/12.

 

[NorthernKronic]

I haven't even harvested yet, but in these trying times in today's world, a lot of people know me as a "source" for truly good weed. On that note, I want to upgrade.

First of all.. you said it yourself you haven't even harvested your first crop yet and people already connect you and growing... Wait one minute here.. I would be careful of anyone that knows you as a good "Source" for weed as you put it.. Not exactly something I would be happy about, especially if I was going to be upgrading my system and investing a lot of time and money.. It sounds like your young so let me give you a piece of advice that any smart grower knows. The more people know about you and your hobby, the more YOUR money, bud, time and ultimately your life are at risk.. so keep your mouth shut!

I would suggest using promix instead of FFOF for your medium. Because if you use FFOF you are going to have to add a bunch of other shit to it (perlite, lime) before you use it.. And in my personal opinion, when I used that stuff (FFOF) it was too heavy and the plants didnt like it as much as being in a lighter mix like promix..


Next you need to find out wheather you have an old nob and tube breaker system or a newer circuit breaker (switch box) type system.. If you have nob and tube your fucked, the wiring is probobly around 100 yrs old and you cant add new circuits onto it... If it is a new style (70's or newer) then you should be able to wire yourself another 15 amp circuit right from the breaker....


Since the load is gonna be a problem for you I would suggest going with 2 600 watt lights for flower and 1 400 for veg.. This will keep your wattage as low as it can be and still try and go for this size of a harvest(2lbs).. It will also help keep your cooling costs down. Use quality aircooled hoods (SuperSun2, Hydrofarm radiant AC, silverstar) to vent most of the hot air right off the bulbs before they can get to your room/plants. You want good reflectors and not crappy ones because with your 600 watters the spread you put out is of one of the most important things..

I wouldnt suggest a sealed system for you because you do not have the extra wattage necessary to run AC. So I would use a 6" vortex to cool the lights, and 1 6" vortex to scrub/exhaust your air outside... Old air has to be exhausted somewhere... if it doesn't then humidity and temp become an immediate problem.. and will most likely hurt your plants sooner rather than later.. You will also need to find a good place to put a 12" passive intake to bring in fresh air, so your exhaust fans can run efficiently.


The can 66 should probobly be ok.. might need to be the can 50 though..


But to be honest im sure your going to see that getting 2lbs isnt going to be a walk in the park.. But have fun and most of all BE SAFE.. its not worth growing if you end up in jail over it..




-N.Kron

 

[PharmaCan]

Next you need to find out wheather you have an old nob and tube breaker system or a newer circuit breaker (switch box) type system.. If you have nob and tube your fucked, the wiring is probobly around 100 yrs old and you cant add new circuits onto it... If it is a new style (70's or newer) then you should be able to wire yourself another 15 amp circuit right from the breaker....


-N.Kron

I'm not going to get into a big electrical argument with you, particularly since the rest of what of what you said seems to be pretty solid advice, but, this simply is not correct. There are too many variable factors involved to make a blanket statement like this correct. Only someone who is qualified electrically and who has looked at his particular set-up can judge whether or not he has room to expand.

PC

 

[asde]

just a small note: if you yield 600g with 2x600w hps you must be a really bad grower / at best you can yield more than 1200g.. i would say 350g-450g more is possible with kickass clones/skills.. i didnt saw what dimensions your going for (maybne i missread), something between 2.4m² and 3m² should work best (too small areas might "overload" the heads resulting in albino white nuggets)

 

[masterKahn]

I've heard many people say that the heat of a 600 is about the same as a 1000 watt bulb with alot less light. As for your circuts not being able to handle two 1000's and ventilation that's a different story. I'd rather have two 600w HPS then two 1000's with a burnt down house.

 

[KMK0420]

NChron, i appreciate the advice but i can look out for myself - you don't know what precautions i take when people know me as a "source" for good weed. A majority of the people who know, also know me by a different name, who lives in a different area, who works at a different job.

I got my security down pat, and the people who know i grow i trust with my life - not to mention those that know, also have incriminating evidence against themselves. I'm not going to get into a bicker battle about security/who to tell/who not to tell, but again thanks for the input

I'm going to have an electrician here once i harvest to check the room out. its about 7ft X 11ft. We had the house rewired and there is a new panel in our basement, upgraded late 90s.

As far as you saying that FFOF isn't a good choice...brother...this is my first grow and these buds are looking DELICIOUS. I'll show you in 30 days what i did on my first grow in FFOF...a lot of people use FFOF, and the plants seem to love it. I'm sure you've heard the saying if it aint broke dont fix it. And in all honesty, there are no growers who will vouch that by switching from FFOF to promix yielded them OUNCES more. if that was the case, i'd reconsider, but from the looks of it unless i go hydro i'll roughly be at the same come harvest time..

Depending on what the electrician tells me, i may stay with 600s or go with 1000's. Obviously air-cooled hoods, my main concern at the moment is to ensure i can have enough available wattage without worry. Shit will be ran with heavy-duty extension cords, all fire hazards removed, etc. Fire extinguisher nearby, etc.

I'd like to have extra, and i'm sure i could pull 2lb's off 2 600s, especially as i grow more i learn more, learn when to feed when not to feed, little things. Master the technique and i'm sure i can pull 1 g/watt. I've seen dozens of new growers pulling 1.05, 1.1g/watt...so...i don't think its impossible for me either! and even at that rate, 1200g...thats ~2.5lbs... a half pound more than i need at best...with 2 1000's, i'll have a lot of leeway as far as mess ups, accidents, etc...that way if i only harvest .5g/watt, i still meet my goal

 

[KMK0420]

update:

i think i'll stick with 2 600's...mainly because of electrical consumption (ill be running a 400W completely separate for a personal strain grow)....i was looking at the GrowLab 120L....there's also the 145 if i wanna go bigger and do 1000s...DECISIONS DECISIONS!

With a tent, i can easily control environment...IE, keep the door open to the room for fresh air, or open windows during night time hours, etc. No light will be leaking under the door intriguing guests, i can keep a carbon filter outside the tent and many other benefits...

GrowLab 120/145 for flowering... question is, should i veg seperately, and/or should i also start getting into cloning? If thats the case can anyone direct me to a good beginners cloning thread on choosing a mother, how to clone, how to keep a mother, etc.?

 

[~fvk~]

Yeah dude, definitely veg separately, it'll keep your harvests going. Good choice on the 600's, but you want to know what I would do? I'd put the 600's on flip flop relays to bring in 2 pounds a month, instead of 2 pounds every 2 months.

If you don't know what a relay is, it connects to your ballast and switches power from one bulb to the other at 12 hours in, without having to shut the ballast down. So yeah, no 12/12 spikes because it's running 24/7. You might have to add upgrade a bit from your 400 for veg, but if you want to cheap out you can use fluoros and stuff. Just a suggestion man.

 

[KMK0420]

here's my idea so far.. have a growlab 145 prob, run 2 1000w's for flowering and have a seperate tent with a 400w cmh for seedlings/rooted clones... total of 2400w, have fans and a portable ac for a total of ~3500-4000w. I figure if I get an electrician in and upgrade it from the current 15 or 20 amp to a 40 amp along with upgrade the outlets themselves to protect against fire hazards I should be cool with concern topower consumption ...

what was the formula to calculate required air movement? like I use a 275cfm fan for a 3x3x6.5 tent and it's perfect. for a growlab 145 what size fan and filter will I need?