Have CHS (Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome?) Use Anti-Histamines and Report

[Douglas.Curtis]

Yo!

As some of you are aware, there's been quite a bit of debate over whether CHS is caused by azadirachtin or by cannabis itself.

Here's the test...

Anyone suffering from CHS, and does so with using only small amounts of heavily aza contaminated cannabis (mainstream medical says it's overuse of large volumes or dabs of cannabis, not small amounts), should take an anti-histamine and report the effects here.

Cannabis can be heavily contaminated with azadirachtin through the use of unrefined neem oil (refined has the aza removed), neem seed meal and (of course) products with azadirachtin in them.

I've used both Benadryl and Allegra, they DRASTICALLY reduce the symptoms. Also report here if you've used another anti-histamine with success.

Getting one step closer to defining the root cause(es) of CHS. THANK YOU!

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

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[Genghis Kush]

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[Douglas.Curtis]

Wouldn't it be wiser to just avoid smoking herb that is not organic?

Obviously you're missing something... organic has nothing to do with it.

Azadirachtin products, neem seed meal and unrefined neem oil are the "Go-To" miticides for most organic and non-organic growers. Azatrol and Azamax are both OMRI certified. Hell, years ago I even recommended it and used it myself. (much to my dismay)

If you're having CHS from ingesting/vaping/smoking small amounts of herb, I'd look strongly at what is being used as a miticide/pesticide on it. Use an anti-histamine and watch your symptoms subside drastically.

Thanks.
(All I hear these days, when people say 'organic,' is the "Ick.")

 

[Genghis Kush]

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If cannabis is making you sick than you should stop using it.

 

[Guest]

Sea salt is an antihistamine.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I have time, I'll wait patiently. When those who have CHS reduce their symptoms, by using anti-histamines, I will be glad to receive the report.

Thank you.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

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[Douglas.Curtis]

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[Douglas.Curtis]

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[Douglas.Curtis]

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[Bobby Boucher]

I spent a couple weeks compulsively bathing, walking, and throwing up everywhere last harvest season from what I learned may have been CHS, but since then I have just stayed the f*ck away from anything I haven't grown myself. I maybe smoke a gram of pot a week that I didn't grow.

I'm probably a perfect lab rat for this antihistamine experiment, but I wouldn't try and subject myself to having another allergic response like the one I had for anything less than like.. 5 grand, modestly. I had to be walked hand in hand for weeks before I recovered my strength. If I ever suffer from the compulsive bathing again, I'll take some antihistamines and report back.

 

[weedaholic721]

Common Antihistamines generally reduce nausea and vomiting. Phenergan(Promethazine) widely prescribed for nausea is a strong antihistimine.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I spent a couple weeks compulsively bathing, walking, and throwing up everywhere last harvest season from what I learned may have been CHS, but since then I have just stayed the f*ck away from anything I haven't grown myself. I maybe smoke a gram of pot a week that I didn't grow.

I'm probably a perfect lab rat for this antihistamine experiment, but I wouldn't try and subject myself to having another allergic response like the one I had for anything less than like.. 5 grand, modestly. I had to be walked hand in hand for weeks before I recovered my strength. If I ever suffer from the compulsive bathing again, I'll take some antihistamines and report back.

I certainly hope you don't end up there again, you now know firsthand what it's like. Definitely interested in your results, if it happens again though, thank you.

Common Antihistamines generally reduce nausea and vomiting. Phenergan(Promethazine) widely prescribed for nausea is a strong antihistimine.

Is it also commonly prescribed for all over muscle tension, gas in the intestines and lower back pain? Most people suffering from CHS are taking hot baths/showers, long before they reach the nausea stage. I, personally, haven't ingested enough aza to get nauseous in years, yet I still have significant pain and discomfort from small poisonings of aza. The anti-histamines work wonders.

 

[weedaholic721]

No thery arent, but the slight sedative nature of antihistamines could help change the perception of pain. You seem to be trying to infer that Azadirachtin is causing an allergic response and due to that antihistamines reduce symptoms?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

No thery arent, but the slight sedative nature of antihistamines could help change the perception of pain. You seem to be trying to infer that Azadirachtin is causing an allergic response and due to that antihistamines reduce symptoms?

I assure you, a slight change in someone's perception of pain is *not* what is causing the significant relief it's bringing. For the record, I also don't get the sleepy effect some people get from benadryl and other anti-histamines.

Yes, I'm suggesting the issues from azadirachtin are due (at least in part) to an allergic reaction of some sort. One thing is for certain, it definitely affects human physiology, even when it's so subtle the average user doesn't attribute it to the aza. You have to be extremely sensitive to connect the two, and most people are not very sensitive. They still come down with the same issues on a milder scale, depending on how contaminated the cannabis is and how much they use a day.

Azadirachtin builds in the system instantly and is depleted very slowly. Use over time will slowly increase symptoms, to a point. You'll notice people with skeletal damage from injuries begin complaining more about their injury pain. PMS will seem much more uncomfortable than it already is. Folks who start having digestive issues (easily mistaken for food/diet changes) on a more frequent basis. All increasing as their usage increases or continues.

 

[ozzieAI]

well DC you still pushing this...please provide any evidence of your claims that aza is the cause...

it may help the guys who wrote this article...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576702/

Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome is a new and under recognized clinical entity. Although its prevalence is unknown, numerous publications have preliminarily established its unique clinical characteristics. CHS should be considered as a plausible diagnosis in the setting of patients with recurrent intractable vomiting and strong history of cannabis abuse. Despite the well-established anti-emetic properties of marijuana, there is increasing evidence of its paradoxical effects on the gastrointestinal tract and CNS. Further initiatives are needed to determine this disease prevalence and its other epidemiological characteristics, natural history, and pathophysiology. Additional treatments are needed and efforts to discontinue cannabis abuse are paramount.

what no mention of aza...that's strange...NOT...

 

[weedaholic721]

The question then is what proof do you have of widespread use of Azadirachtin on cannabis, I have never seen it reported. It seems a bit far fetched for it to cause all the CHS that's been reported.

Most who report it are high dose users of flower and hash. It seems much more reasonable that most cases would be caused from consistent ingestion of very high levels of cannbinoids/terpenes. As I have stated before, myrcene(common in many cultivars) modulates mu opioid receptors. Anything that modulates opioid receptors, even slightly, have the potential to cause the symptoms of CHS at high doses.

Unless you perform some sort of trial to test your hypothesis, anectdotal evidence will only show a qualitative correlation but you can't show cause without real proof.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

well DC you still pushing this...please provide any evidence of your claims that aza is the cause...

it may help the guys who wrote this article...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576702/

No mention of ANY pesticides or anything. Their study does not take anything other than 'cannabis' into account. Factor in the majority of cannabis users have zero clue what's in/on their cannabis and I don't find the results that surprising.

People who don't know cannabis, studying cannabis, will come to the wrong conclusions quite easily. Especially when the connection isn't in-your-face obvious. Since most people are not as sensitive, they don't attribute their continuing issues with aza. Shocker? Not.

The question then is what proof do you have of widespread use of Azadirachtin on cannabis, I have never seen it reported. It seems a bit far fetched for it to cause all the CHS that's been reported.

Look at any thread on mites and you'll see unrefined neem oil (which has 200ppm - 2000ppm per oz of aza in it), neem seed meal and azadirachtin based (OMRI certified) products being pushed as THE cure for mites.

It's a no-brainer that aza is being used extensively on cannabis, for well over 10 years now. The first contact I had was with SoCal dispensary cannabis over 10 years ago. I KNOW I stood in line next to other people for meds, suffering from the exact same issues they had, and their doctors were just as puzzled over the source of the pain. It took me a few years to connect the dots, but connect them I did. Very subtle, due to it taking time to bio-accumulate and cause issues. People don't suspect the cannabis they've been using for 2 weeks for their sudden issues.

Most who report it are high dose users of flower and hash.

Of course, because most cannabis (excluding a large number of dispensary product) has only low level contamination of aza. It takes at least a week or more for the aza to build to a point where it bothers the less-sensitive to it. OR use of concentrates, which concentrates the amount available. Hand those same people a bowl of heavily contaminated cannabis and it only takes a few tokes for their stomach/intestines to start rumbling and the back pain to set in.

It seems much more reasonable that most cases would be caused from consistent ingestion of very high levels of cannbinoids/terpenes.

This is still a possibility. However, my research online, the posts people have sent me and my personal testing points to aza as the main culprit.

As I have stated before, myrcene(common in many cultivars) modulates mu opioid receptors. Anything that modulates opioid receptors, even slightly, have the potential to cause the symptoms of CHS at high doses.

I don't use myrcene heavy strains and never have, I prefer functional cannabis and myrcene doesn't work for me.

Unless you perform some sort of trial to test your hypothesis, anectdotal evidence will only show a qualitative correlation but you can't show cause without real proof.

Yeah, been there, did that. Tested multiple strains in the same flower room... two different runs. A clone of each strain was left untreated, one was root drenched and one sprayed, the first week of flower. 70 days later the untreated cannabis was the only cannabis I could consume, without having CHS symptoms. Tested both Azamax and Azatrol at 3ml/gallon.

I've been over this and over this. I've questioned growers and asked for input from regular tokers. So far there's only a tiny segment of it which can *possibly* be attributed to "just cannabis." So small I'd say there's room for error to discount it.

This is the reason I'm continuing to push for the ultimate truth. Until proper studies are done I can only ask for additional input and caution others to watch for the symptoms themselves. No harm in that, right?

There was a famous case where a doctor in the USA used a cream on his wrist. It made his skin tingle. (Obviously he was extremely sensitive to whatever was in the cream.) He cautioned mothers not to use it. Europe ignored him and had a huge increase in birth defects. The studies pointed to whatever was in the skin cream and it was taken off the market. No, I don't remember what the product was, sorry.

Take my advice and avoid using unrefined neem oil, neem seed meal and azadirachtin in your plants. You'll be helping a lot of people be healthier because of it. Whether your reaction to it is high, like mine, or low like my wife's and a lot of folks I ran into in Colorado, it's still affecting people daily without their knowledge.

I have zero doubts my caution will be vindicated in the years to come. Sadly it will be too late for a huge number of people.

SO... if you or anyone you know has CHS symptoms, ask them to use an anti-histamine and report back here. I greatly appreciate it.

Thank You

 

[ozzieAI]

explain this then: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/che...registration/decision_PC-025006_07-May-12.pdf

EPA has considered the potential for cumulative effects of Cold Pressed Neem Oil and other substances in relation to a common mechanism of toxicity. However, because of its low toxicity to mammalian systems, the Agency does not expect any cumulative or incremental effects from exposure to residues of Cold Pressed Neem Oil when applied/used as directed on the label and in accordance with good agricultural practices


A number of studies have addressed the degradation of Cold Pressed Neem Oil components in the environment. In forest environments, azadirachtin A persisted 3 to 6 days in terrestrialmatrices and 8 to 13 days in water (Sundaram et al., 1999). In laboratory studies, azadirachtin was shown to have temperature dependent degradation rates in sandy loam soils with half-lives of 43.9 and 19.8 days at 15 oC and 25 oC, respectively (Stark and Walter, 1995). When the soil was autoclaved, half-lives increased to 91.2 (15 oC) and 31.5 days (25 oC), demonstrating the significant influence of microbial activity in the degradation of Cold Pressed Neem Oil. Half lives for azadirachtin B in sandy loam soil were comparable to that of azadirachtin A.
Azadirachtin is extremely labile in light with photolysis half lives of 48 min to 3.98 days in thin films under UV light, and 2.47 days on leaf surfaces (Johnson et al., 2003). In field trials with olives, azadiractin residues had a half-life of 0.8 days (Caboni et al., 2002).
Based on the submitted data, Cold Pressed Neem Oil is readily biodegradable in soil, water and on foliar surfaces. As a result, Cold Pressed Neem Oil and its components are not likely to persist in the environment.


EPA has determined that Cold Pressed Neem Oil, in either agricultural or indoor use practices, presents no issues of toxicological, ecological, or environmental concern. As discussed above, acute toxicity data for Cold Pressed Neem Oil demonstrate that it is either toxicity category IV or III. Cold Pressed Neem Oil does not demonstrate subchronic or developmental toxicity, and it is not mutagenic or genotixic. EPA has no concerns for any non-target organisms exposed to Cold Pressed Neem Oil in accordance with approved label directions. EPA has not identified any toxic endpoints for non-target mammals, birds, plants, aquatic, or soil organisms. Nor are there concerns for any threatened and endangered species. Thus, given that Cold Pressed Neem Oil has very low toxicity and presents little if any risk to non-target organisms, EPA concludes that it is in the best interests of the public and the environment to both issue the registration for Cold Pressed Neem Oil and to approve its use indoors. Consistent with the Agency’s policy for making these registration actions more transparent, EPA has provided one 30-day public comment period on the decision to register Cold Pressed Neem Oil and an additional 30-day public comment period on the decision to approve the “first indoor use” of Cold Pressed Neem Oil. No comments were received during either comment period.

and here is what you are required to do:

Additionally, all incidents of hypersensitivity (including both suspected and confirmed incidents) must be reported to the Agency under the provisions of 40 CFR Part 158.2050(d).