Happy frog PH 4.5.. very sick plants! please help?

[mikemoister]

SOIL:

How long has this problem been going on?....4 weeks
What STRAIN are you growing?.....White widow/satori
What was the establishing technique?....seed
What is the age of your plants?.....7 weeks
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?.3 weeks
How Tall are the plants?.... 1ft 1/2
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?...veg
What Technique are you using?.....LST
What size pots are you using? ....3 gallon
What substrate/medium are you using?... Happy frog soil (Straight)
What Nutrient's are you using?.....Pura vida
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*..... havent applied yet
How often are you feeding?.....o
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? .....4.5 or lower
What method of pH test was administered?..... GH drops
How often are you watering?...when pots are light ..once a week..PH6.5
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?...4 weeks ago.
What size bulb are you using?....400 WATT MH
What is the distance to the canopy?.....1ft 1/2
What is your RH Factor?......40-50%
What is the canopy temperature?.....73-81*
What is the Day/Night Temp? 73-81*
What is the current Air Flow? 400 cfm
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?...on 30min before and after light cycle
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? ....gently osscilating
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?.....no
Is your water HARD or SOFT?....230ppm
What water are you using? ....RO water
Are you using water from a water softener? ...NO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?....NO
Have any pest chemicals been used?....1 week ago...SM 90
Are plant's infected with pest's?.....NO

Plants were transplanted from 4inch pots to 3gallon pots containing happy frog because leaves were looking a bit sad. plants started growing really quick and doubled in size but quickly after nutrient lock out began. They are watered with Ro water (6.5ph) run off is 4.5 or lower even if watered with 8.5 Ph water. All advice is greatly appreciated...Thanks

 

[mikemoister]

This is what they look like right now.

 

[GroHi]

Did you amend with Dolomite Lime?

Sound like you got a batch of acidic peat, which is what peat is... acidic. Adding the DL will help raise the soil pH & balance the peat mix, though this is done during the soil mix, prior to planting. Finely ground DL is best, just for future reference.

Someone may have better advice, but don't think you can top-feed DL effectively (it bunched up at the top w I last used it). Hydrated Lime will radically alter the pH & do so quickly. It is highly soluble & gets into the soil. A very small amount goes a long way... very, very small amount. You can toss your solution pH well over 10.0 with the stuff.

I would slowly top-feed, little at a time each day, until the run-off pH falls into line with what you want. This likely won't happen right away, so it might take you a week or so to balance it out.

Peace brother. I'm not in soil any longer so someone else may have better advice. Just to start you out though... ;-)

 

[EvilTwin]

MM,
I used to do soil, but mostly hydro now. One comment...you went from 4" pots straight to 3 gallon pots. It's generally best to do up-potting in smaller steps. That may have stressed the plants and then you found your soil to be too acidic. Like GroHi said, lime is the answer but you'll have to research what type and how to apply it. sorry can't help you. And I'd bump up your watering ph to 7. Won't hurt anything and may help.
Good luck,
ET

 

[ibjamming]

Top dress with dolomite lime...it will take some time but they'll live...

 

[built2last]

i had the same problem. I was using distilled water with ffof and light warrior and had major ph issues in the low 5's. csharper helped me with this by switching to ph adjusted tap water. He explained that because peat is so acidic the buffers may have been washed away due to runoff or other reasons etc.. and because the ro water has nothing in it doesn't help with buffering, but tap does. Let the water sit out overnight to evaporate chlorine, adjust ph and water. Fixed mine immediately and now am having no problems.

Give it a try

 

[mikemoister]

Thank you for the speedy replies. Next time dolomite lime will be applied to the mix even though it is listed on the bag. I'm going to read some info on hydrated lime so i don't over do it. The thing with tap water (8.5pH) is that when lowered to 6.5 with phosphoric acid the pH shift right back to 8.5 the next day; will this be a problem for the plants ? I also read that strong acid will kill beneficial bacteria so can i use lemon juice or vinegar with the same results?

Here are some more pics of the ladies.

one more ? Is there still time to change them to properly pHed soil with out further stress, the roots have grown to the bottom already.It seems sketchy but i really want these girls to come out right.
Thanks

 

[built2last]

I use the natural down from earth juice. Only need a small amount per 5 gal bucket. Very stable. You can use lemon juice but I don't think its very stable or accurate. With a ph that low and them needing a transplant anyway I would transplant into new soil and give a good watering with plain tap water. I didn't even ph adjust mine at first because like you my soil was very acidic. Afterwards they looked a million times better. From then on I monitored the ph of the water going in and have had no problems. I had twisted leaves, severe lockout, etc... and now looking great. good luck

 

[GroHi]

Mike, if you don't mind stressing the ladies out a little, which means you may lose a week or two for them to rebound slowly, then you can pull the root mass & repot.

To put it into perspective, people will pull a root ball & take a saw to the mass on all four sides & the bottom. They essentially cut a few inches off all around & then repot. Sure, this is going to stress the plant & will require time to restart growth.

Your plants aren't a ok now, so they may like it even less, but will eventually rebound. My personal action would be to loosen the soil around my previous root ball & try to extract as much of the new roots as possible w/o breaking them. don't bother rinsing the mass as doubt much soil is going to stick. have your newly mixed soil ready to go. repot & water heavily first time with Superthrive @ 1ml/gal. Raise lights & just back off the girls a little... give them time to rbound.

Shit, you could probably just continue on w others help from above w/o any real problems. Either way, it is going to take a little time.

Peace brother & green vibes.

 

[gergles]

you should look at stitch's guide and ask for help

 

[Ziggaro]

I'd be pretty sure its lockout from both the mix being too hot for the plants, and those pots being way too big. Like you said, they grew grew grew shot up and then just stopped... sounds like typical hot soil problems the plant finally found its breaking point.

You're plants look pretty cooked to me, which probaby caused the lockout in the first place. Since then, the organic materials just kept releasing nutrients that your plant cant use and in turn lowered the pH

I would definitely repot...Find a place where it doesnt matter if you make a mess, take the entire ball of soil out of the pot and shake off any excess.

Repot in something not quite as hot. Honestly, though, I don't think dolomite would have fixed the problem

Just use smaller pots next time and cut your mix a little with something inert.

 

[hazy]

Low pH causes plants to take up excessive nutrients. High pH causes lockout of some nutrients.
I thought the new growth looked good in the last pics, so maybe your problem is solved?
Anyway, adding nutes to a low pH problem will make it worse. Also, when you add nutes to your water it should lower that 8.5 water down. How did you end up with such low runoff with high pH water. I see you also use ro water. At 6.5 if you add nutes, it may make it too low. Or maybe it's the peat based soil?
Switch to coco and get some floranova.

 

[mikemoister]

Thanks for all the help guys. I just watered three of them with a teaspoon of hydrated lime which might be point less if the soil is too hot;the maximum is 1.5tsp per gallon of soil so im taking it slow...(i think).i am confused. should i try to fix the pH if the soil is hot .....but it might not be that hot because one of the satori girls looks healthy,but if i have to change the soil which should i get....the shop has ffof, light warrior,black gold, and botanicare ready gro but that's about it and they are all peat based. i don't have any experience with coir ...do you add anything to it or go straight?

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi MM,
Well your choices are to try and improve the soil without transplanting or to go ahead and transplant...

Aren't there any department stores with garden sections nearby? Or a garden center... You aren't compelled to buy everything at a hydro chop. some people never go in them. Or do you have some of the happy frog soil left? Why not just buy some amendments and dilute it a bit and add some lime while you're mixing it up. You could even remove the rootballs, cover then with old damp towels or something...and amend the soil that's in the pots. Correct the ph and dilute it. People make their own soil mix all the time. I'm just sort-of thinking out loud. I don't want to just tell you what to do...you'll have to make that decision. Just wanted to talk about your options.

Far as coco. That's a whole different ballgame. I personally wouldn't suggest that you go with coco because you're having trouble with soil. There are plenty of problems with coco...it's no magic solution. Do some serious personal research before doing that.
ET

 

[mr noodles]

if you have the facility and the space , the best solution is to transplant them in new and properly ph balanced medium .it can be messy if the plant are big .

what ive done with success for a friend in need . bathing the root zone in a tub to get rid of the medium . gently dissolve the soil/medium in a huge quantity of water . with patience you will get an almost soil free root zone . be gentle...

then transplant in a new medium.

be careful, very careful and ph the water before dumping the roots in the water !

 

[mikemoister]

whats up buddies.
Transplanting seems to be the easiest ..ET is there a soil you recommend from the garden section of HD or lowes? Thanks for the tips Mr. noodles.
There is so much great info. Thanks to everyone who replied,I know these ladies will recover very soon.

peace brothers

 

[EvilTwin]

whats up buddies.
Transplanting seems to be the easiest ..ET is there a soil you recommend from the garden section of HD or lowes? Thanks for the tips Mr. noodles.
There is so much great info. Thanks to everyone who replied,I know these ladies will recover very soon.

peace brothers

Sorry MM...
No specific recommendations. Look and see what they have. Read the labels. You just want a mild all-purpose soil that's not pre-charged with nutrients. You want to have maximum control over that yourself.

Be aware that some of the mixes you might see could be soil-less mixes with no nutritive value at all. Mostly peat based. You use it like soil only you have to provide all nutrients like you do with coco.

Have a cover story if you ask the clerk...like you're planting some tomatoes in a greenhouse or something. Just nice to have a story in mind in case the clerk asks what you're using the soil for.
ET