Giving coco another shot

[surfingrob]

I had a REALLY bad failure with a coco mix I was using and pretty much decided to stay away from the stuff. However, seeing the amazing results some people are getting on this forum, I decided to try again.

I took 3 of my sensi star clones and 3 of my northern lights clones for this experiment, all 6 very well rooted in peat pucks and healthy. I call it an experiment because the coco coir I use isn't really heard of on this forum, although it is omri approved(came compressed). I rinsed the hell out of it since I was unsure about the quality even though it looked good. Everyone seems to have different watering schedules and nute arsenals for their coco coir. I am going to be using CNS17 mainly for grow and bloom, it has never failed me in any grow that has worked properly.

I put two clones into 100% coir, 2 clones into 90% coir 10% Organics Alive worm castings, and 2 clones into Moonshine Mix as a control. All got watered with filtered (not RO) water at 6.6 PH.

I did not pre-rinse my coir with a cal mag solution as some people reccommend. I did the 10% organics alive mixture because I heard it gets rid of the mag deficiency some people get in coir. However, I was also told since CNS17 is made for coco, I wouldn't need to do that. I just need to find out for myself.

Anyone have experience with coir and organics alive?

 

[3dDream]

Sorry I do not know about the organics, but I do run a 5.8-6.2ph in coco. A 6.6ph seems a little high. I run that in soil.

 

[surfingrob]

K i resoaked them at 5.8 hopefully things turn out okay

 

[bluewonder999]

listen to the guy upstairs your ph has to be those numbers and the medium has to stay wet

 

[surfingrob]

OK but what about the cal mag thing? I always hear CoCO growers specifically referencing at the "cal mag thing". I guess coco has a weird thing with cal mag where some people have to pre-soak it with a cal mag solution or use something to give it calmag. Anyone?

-rob

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

A lot of growers got burned on coconut coir when it first appeared in the growshops. Early coco coir contained high levels of sodium, sometimes as high as 1000 ppm. The fiber quality was also very poor. Immature fibers often gave a powdery growing medium that had poor structure for root growth and aeration. Nowadays it's different. High quality coco coir such as Canna and Bcuzz has low sodium levels and the fiber structure is superior to that of peat (soil). It gives great results if used right.

Coco coir generally has a neutral ph (7.0), which is why you try to keep the nutrient solution around 6.0, to get a ph environment somewhere in between.

Mixing your coco coir with an inert medium such as perlite (for better drainage) is pointless, since pure coco drains well enough to prevent overwatering (I've got three 100% coco coir grows behind me and going on a fourth, and I've yet to see a single case of overwatering). Mixing soil into your coco is equally pointless and even counter-productive, since coco has a superior Caption Exchange Capacity than soil (capacity to hold and deliver nutrients to the roots), as well as perlite. So, by diluting the coco with whatever has a lower CEC (basically, only water and hydroponics does the job better than coco), you decrease your medium's capacity to deliver nutrients to the plants.

Use coco as a hydroponic medium. Water until run-off, and never let the medium dry out. This prevents salt build-ups, and provides a stable EC and ph.

You shouldn't have any problems if you follow these basic guidelines.

 

[Kosmo]

A lot of growers got burned on coconut coir when it first appeared in the growshops. Early coco coir contained high levels of sodium, sometimes as high as 1000 ppm. The fiber quality was also very poor. Immature fibers often gave a powdery growing medium that had poor structure for root growth and aeration. Nowadays it's different. High quality coco coir such as Canna and Bcuzz has low sodium levels and the fiber structure is superior to that of peat (soil). It gives great results if used right.

Coco coir generally has a neutral ph (7.0), which is why you try to keep the nutrient solution around 6.0, to get a ph environment somewhere in between.

Mixing your coco coir with an inert medium such as perlite (for better drainage) is pointless, since pure coco drains well enough to prevent overwatering (I've got three 100% coco coir grows behind me and going on a fourth, and I've yet to see a single case of overwatering). Mixing soil into your coco is equally pointless and even counter-productive, since coco has a superior Caption Exchange Capacity than soil (capacity to hold and deliver nutrients to the roots), as well as perlite. So, by diluting the coco with whatever has a lower CEC (basically, only water and hydroponics does the job better than coco), you decrease your medium's capacity to deliver nutrients to the plants.

Use coco as a hydroponic medium. Water until run-off, and never let the medium dry out. This prevents salt build-ups, and provides a stable EC and ph.

You shouldn't have any problems if you follow these basic guidelines.

What he Said^

Treat coco like Hydro get hydro results.
Treat like soil get soil results

The Future Is CoCo!!!

 

[gdawg]

excellent post rosy! ok i know some people might start screamin but for the first 2-3 weeks after i take my clones out of my bubble cloner i feed them with miracle gro to get em started good. they seem to like it and i don't suffer with as many defs. i'll run the ppm up to 4 or 500. then start on the pbpgrow and so forth. i've yet to try the cns17 btu may give it a shot on my next run, i'm tired of dealin with the calmag crap.

 

[-VT-]

CNS17 is not "coco specific"

CNS17 is not "coco specific"

OK but what about the cal mag thing? I always hear CoCO growers specifically referencing at the "cal mag thing". I guess coco has a weird thing with cal mag where some people have to pre-soak it with a cal mag solution or use something to give it calmag. Anyone?

-rob

The key IMO is the source water....not enough attention is paid to that around here...not all tap water is the same...people just cannot seem to understand this for some reason...not sure why it's so hard for folks to buy into...source water is a major factor IMO...especially in coco

I was succesful using CNS17 with RO (low TDS) water and no Cal/Mag+ until the plants hit maturity...then I ran into problems....ramping up the base nutes (CNS17) led to burn in my CNS17 runs....the answer for me was adding Cal/Mag+

I liked 1/2 tsp/gal as a baseline for new clones....and I slowly ramped up....I also ran additives....with no additives I would hazve ramped up the baseline a bit more....

Problem with my coco brand (Botanicare...excellent stuff) is excess K...Ca washes K from the mix...in short....if you start seeing twisting leaves and deformed growth (fingers missing...crooked, etc...) then you need to either ramp up the nutes or get some Cal/Mag+ (or a like product)

Unlike others around here who claim to have CNS17 experience....I have documented a couple CNS17 runs (with pictures)

Botanicare CNS17 Test Run in Coco​

That thread has a lot of good info regarding coco in general...lots of folks shared some info in that thread

My current thread featured a CNS17 bloomshow at the onset....
Along with pH lockout...if you get pH burn in bloom...well...it's very ugly...if I ever pH burn plants again in bloom, I'll just chop 'em

Hope this helps...if not, feel free to get back at me publicly or by PM...I'm eager to be of service :smile:

 

[gdawg]

good post VT! i'm gonna try to find that bloomshow thread. i was thinkin of switchin to the cns17 from the pbp but if there are still cal/mag issues i don't know...

 

[Guest]

Are you watering by hand or using a drip system???

Doesn't really matter, but I finally got my recirc system running for my current grow and it's tons easier.

Anyway, here's what I do with coco.

The following is what I do and I've never even had a serious problem that couldn't be fixed with a flush (only had to do that once - I added Cal-Mag+ and had probs). If you're using straight ro water, then you will need to add Cal-Mag+ to get the trace minerals that tap water normally provides. I just don't need it but you might. Don't know what for but...

I've not lost a single plant or had any lockouts using the above. My current grow is 12 days into flower and my lights are already up against the ceiling. My fault for not doing a scrog or supercropping. I'm growing 3 DJS F-13, 1 Gypsy Nirvana Foxtail Sativa and 3 MOD Kali Most. All are sativas but the Kali Most are the stretchers. F-13's and the foxtail are the most beautiful plants I've ever grown. Already covering up in trichs. Don't have the time to do a thread but the grow is going well.

Edited:
When I say the plants are 12 days into flower, I mean it's been 12 days since the first hairs showed up on the buds. Lights were flipped on September 23. Plant growth was huge during the first 3 weeks of 12/12.


My grow rules:

100% coco - used canna but too expensive to pay freight on - now use B'cuzz.
No need to flush either canna or B'cuzz before using

Nutes - Canna A+B, PK 13/14

Water 50/50 tap/ro ec before nutes=0.25 - my tap water is high in sodium so I cut it - my ro water is really water collected from my dehumidifier and has an ec of 0.02. Tap water provides the trace minerals the plants need. I always pH to 5.8. I mix my nutes in clear 5 gal water jugs. I run a hose from the drain on my dehumidifier to the jugs.

I water twice a day. Meter comes on once in the morning as the lights come on and then again 10 hours later, which is 2 hours from lights out. I'm using a recirculating drip system and have got 7 plants in a 3x6 tray under 1400w of hps.

Always water till you get at least 10% runoff out of the bottom of the pots. That way any buildup of ferts washes out with each watering. I have my system to run for 4 minutes and I'm growing in 3 gal containers. I'm getting a 100% runoff every time I water. But then it drains right back into the res so I don't lose it. Every couple of days I check the ec and the pH. Ec normally climbs a bit due to evaporation and plant use of nutes. pH seems to stay rock steady at 5.8 as the coco does its thing and adjusts pH as it can.

Peace

 

[surfingrob]

Thanks guys thats alot of great info. I know now why I screwed over my last crop and had a bad experience with coco in the first place. It happened right after I put a full dose of Calmag into my 300ppm tap water on top of my nutrient regimen... total nute burn very quickly, they didnt even want to recover after a flush.

However, my experiments with coco and organics alive are going very well. I realized the coco coir I get from my shop needs to rinsed a hell of alot to work well.

 

[Guest]

Best of luck on your future grows. I subscribe to the "less is more" principle in growing. Except at harvest time, of course - then more is never enough, hehe.

Peace