fungal vs barcterial dominant tea

[hobosapien]

hey all,

i kinda dove head first into the organic method, and have been reeling ever since.

i picked up a copy of 'teaming with microbes' by jeff lowenfel and in the second part of the book clearly lays out that plants generally prefer one of two forms of nitrogen. (ammonium/nitrate)

my understanding is that Nitrates promotes dense vigorous growth, over ammonium's 'lanky' growth in veggies/perennials.

there was an article i read from skunk magazine on this forum regarding fungal teas... understanding the benefits of mycorhizzae i can see the appeal, but it is clearly stated certain bacterial populations change ammonium N to nitrate N.

this leads me here, to ask the organic fanatics that i KNOW are kicking around, do you take this into consideration in soil mix/tea prep?

i am using FF OF and plan to add FF LW at transplant. i think the hummus will give me some bacterial pop. growth....

any ideas?
advice?
critiques?

keep it green. peace.

 

[3BM]

You want both populations (Bacterial and Fungal) in your dirt. Many commercially available innoculants will give you both. Manure and worm cast contains great BB populations, and ProMix contains Myc. Fox farm POM has myc too I think. You can get them from the air as well, but thats another discussion entirely.

3bm

 

[hobosapien]

yes there are bacterial populations that actually affix nitriogen IN nitrate form....

the implications are awesome. that is why i am looking for specific information about brews people may have stumbled upon, but the info about commercial products is useful...

yea i was sold at the store on some FF light warrior...

FF has to say: "Light Warrior® is the ultimate grow medium for seed starting and transplanting. And it isn’t just a grow medium—we pack it with beneficial microbes to stimulate root growth and enhance fertilizer uptake, humic acid to help in seed germination, and earthworm castings to help plants thrive. Light Warrior® is the perfect fast-draining, lightweight seed germinator for your indoor jungle."

i am going to use it to cut their ocean forest @ 2:1(OF/LW)

BTW, this rant was started with a post about a specific FUNGUS tea brewed by a guy at SKUNK mag. (the rev)

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=61990

he mentions fungi being out competed in soil. this only makes sense because of the short amount of time (relatively) the roots are actually growing (short veg/6 wk flower).

3BM keep it green brother.

 

[vonforne]

Here is a quick tea I have brewed for my flowering girls.









they are digging it.

V

 

[hobosapien]

Von thanks for stopping by. this is the kinda stuff i am looking to discuss.

i am sure you have heard of the tea i mentioned, i have been using it, and the plants DO look good, but i know that is a fungal dominant tea.

your tea looks RICH. mind sharing the recipe?

in the near future i may perform a side by side, comparing the fungal tea i use VS a bacterial tea (looking for suggestions/INFO).

considering what a difference in soil chemistry these subtleties make, it could make for some interesting side by side comparison.

main point of question/experiment = (nitrate VS ammonium) Nitrogen.

PS- i got my light warrior... = )

 

[vonforne]

This tea mix is:

2 TBS Indo guano per gallon(bacteria dominant)
1 TBS of Mexi guano per gallon(bacteria dominant)
Cultured fungi @ 2 TBS total ( I let the fungi grow in a closed environment)
Some molasses
about 3 TBS of raw leonardite. This changed the teas properties. I think it was the biggest factor to the fungi propagating with in the tea mix.
1 capful of fish meal (fungi dominant)

the reason that bacteria out does the fungi is because it takes longer to reproduce and does not reproduce as much as the bacteria and that is why I culture the fungi out side of the tea and then introduce it later. Fermented fish meal is another good one to use.

V

 

[judas cohen]

Von: regarding the above post- By "raw leonardite" do you mean the Rich Earth product? In some previous threads, you used liquid humic/fulvic acid. Why did you change? Are your results better, worse, the same.....

"changed the teas properties"....?

Thanks in advance, JC

 

[vonforne]

"raw leonardite"

I use three brands. Rich Earth, TurfPro and Activator. The difference is the type of refinement. The first two being more like and the later being like shale ore. It will turn you hands black. This is the one I add to the teas. I added the fungi culture also.

"changed the teas properties"....?

I know you have used P guanos in a tea. And it does not foam much. Now when I added the fungi and leonardite with in hours it had that fungus growing on everything. I had a tray at the bottom of the bucket and it was completely covered along with the sock, tubing...anything for the fungi to attach itself.
What I should have said is that it went from being a bacterial dominant tea to a fungal dominant tea. Now I didn't look under a microscope or send a sample to Dr. Ingham but it is just an observation by me.

I stopped using the liquids when the raw form became available to me. I like soil building. These products are present in the soil now for long periods of time.

I still add it to the teas as before just in the unrefined form. I am just starting to work with fungal teas and culturing fungi to introduce into the soil substrate.

V

 

[Guest]

there was an article i read from skunk magazine

Haha...REv is THE man when it comes to organics and bacterial and fungal stuff however I do not believe teas are best for things like fungal dominant teas. I'm pretty sure you need certain soil amendments, actually stuff like oats or citrus peels, for fungal dominant soils.

 

[vonforne]

Mountain, I culture the fungi before adding them to the tea. They are made out of oatmeal, coffee grounds new and old with filters.

 

[judas cohen]

OK, I think I get it now. Pretty cool idea!

That would also be a nifty tea to moisten soil in the larger container while the soil is "cooking" awaiting transplant from the veg container? The rootball would go on top of soil that is teaming with active fungi spores and bacteria. Give the plant a headstart for the 12/12 stretch. Do ya' think?

 

[hobosapien]

whoa!

let me catch up!

von: thanks for the tea mix and GREAT info bout fungi.
its true that fungi are better for the flower process (phosphorus)?

how do you feel about rock phosphate? i hear that is another good munchi for fungi.(tea)

that is rad von! your white thumb it apparent.


JC: that sounds like a real good idea. at leas break it up and mix it think in the top layer.... hmmm sounds like another project on my horizon!



keep it green yall.

 

[Guest]

Mountain, I culture the fungi before adding them to the tea. They are made out of oatmeal, coffee grounds new and old with filters.

Ha ha...whoa is right...I heard oatmeal was important and coffee grounds seem to rock as a base 'food'.

 

[hobosapien]

von i have been thinking about that culture, and decided to start an experiment of with various materials. a sort of fungi feast compost style.

i have grown many types of mushrooms before, and it amazes me more and more how interwoven the cultivation of the two can be....

thanks for stopping by this thread, sincerely.

keep it green.

 

[fortragni]

Hey sorry for chiming in late, i just started using teas this grow it's still early/seedlings but i'm brewing my second tea right now.. it's based on fungus compost. foams within 20 minutes. i put a sockful of compost, a half liter of flat apple cider, some confectioners sugar, some brown sugar, a shot of EarthJuice Bloom, little bit of apple spread (100% apple), then added some urine. at the bottom of the brew bucket was some residue from the last tea, and i made sure to add a pinch of bone meal and added a second, smaller sock of alfalfa meal (guinea pig pellets actually). to about 2 gallons of water. i use the flat airstones, 2 of them with i 750 dual aquarium pump.

 

[pineappaloupe]

vonafone: thanks for the wealth of info on making teas. i love em.
your fungi mix looks really crazy. my teas come out similar to your first picture but nothing like the crazy foamy one.
also, do you ever notice biomass in the tea? my last few seem to have things floating in them, when i pour it into my watering trough you can really see cloudyness in the brown.

peace

 

[judas cohen]

whoa!

let me catch up!

von: thanks for the tea mix and GREAT info bout fungi.
its true that fungi are better for the flower process (phosphorus)?

how do you feel about rock phosphate? i hear that is another good munchi for fungi.(tea)

that is rad von! your white thumb it apparent.


JC: that sounds like a real good idea. at leas break it up and mix it think in the top layer.... hmmm sounds like another project on my horizon!



keep it green yall.

Hobo- I read that soft rock phosphate is great for fungi too. MICRONIZED SRP is available to the plant in days instead of months. It is not soluble in water, but the particles are so small that it stays in suspension and farmers use it for irrigating/foliar feeding crops. That's the recommended way of using it. Regular (non-micronized) SRP is, as you know, is best mixed into soil and provides a very long term slow release.

However, I think either size would provide a good home for microbes when used in tea. Rolan/terroy (Rev/Skunk Mag) recommends it in tea for flower. He says some old timer told him that if you get it dialed in right, it's even better than bat guano for bud taste and flavor.

I have the micronized SRP and really like it. If interested, it's available from PVG&S (groworganicdot com) for $4.99 for 2 lbs. They also have MICRONIZED humate, which is great for foliar tea. I use that too. (Micronized products are not just for farmers and hydro folks, IMO.)

Different subject...I'm a computer moron, don't know how to select individual quotes when posting. LOL

Regarding the fungi tea before re=potting: I'm talking about preparing a large pot with flower nutes in it, make a mold in the soil with an empty same size container as your veg pot, water with fungi dominant flower tea and let it sit 2+weeks while vegging.

When ready for 12/12, place the plant in the perfect sized hole of the flower container. My thinking is: since fungi grows much slower than bacteria, by the time you switch to flower the fungi is ready to rock and roll. Not an original idea and maybe too much trouble for some people, but it probably couldn't hurt.

 

[vonforne]

vonafone: thanks for the wealth of info on making teas. i love em.
your fungi mix looks really crazy. my teas come out similar to your first picture but nothing like the crazy foamy one.
also, do you ever notice biomass in the tea? my last few seem to have things floating in them, when i pour it into my watering trough you can really see cloudyness in the brown.

peace

Hey Pineapple, I just like passing on things that I am working on and to get a collective thought on the process. I learn as much from others as others learn from me.

The tea with the big head on it is just some fresh EWC, molasses and water. I think I added some Humic acid also. I do not just add 3 TBS of EWC I add a handful. Doing this will give me a faster higher concentrated bacterial tea. Add it will not harm the plants by over doing it.

A biomass, I suppose you could call the film on the top of the container that along with the film on the bucket, tubing, air stone and the tray at the bottom of the bucket. When I poured the solution into another bucket I could see groups of particles floating around. I tried not to disturb them any more than I had to.

Hey JC, great answer as always. One thing I do practice is putting these things in the reservoir. I will place them in there from time to time. Like SRP, Epsom salts, K-Mag natural, Humic shale ore.

The fungi culture I have been working on sits in the kitchen in a pan. I take spoon fulls and add to the containers about a week before flowering. I water the container before hand and then add the fungi. It seems to do well undisturbed for the next few days. As you all know the plant will use less water in the first days of transplant. So it gives the fungi plenty of time to spread out in the container to gain a good foothold. I still add Myc. fungi at transplant.

V

 

[judas cohen]

Hey Von I use epsom salt (1/4 tsp/gal) along with AK 5-1-1, molasses and Maxicrop 1-0-4, once in late veg and once again after the 12/12 stretch, as a foliar feed. Sort of a booster/S&Mg deficiency preventive measure dealio.

I tend to think of K-Mag as a fertilizer mixed in when preparing the soil. Just seems easier to keep track of my n-p-k and secondary nute ratios when starting a grow.

I use micronized humate (1 tbl/gal) for foliar feeding/soil drench same as you, which is less than recommended by the manufacturer (4 tbl/gal for foliar, or 1 tbl/100 sq ft.)

For micronized SRP the recommended rate is even higher (6 tbl/gal foliar or 1lb/500 sq ft.) I use 1 tbl/gal for flowering about every 3rd time I water.

I have multiple n-p-k sources in my soil (immediate, short, and long term release). I use tea mostly just to feed the critters in the soil, with an occasional foliar spray just to give the leaves some love. LOL

I really like your approach of "cooking" the fungi in your flower mix while awaiting tranplant from veg. Seems like a good way to get the "timing" dialed in. My question is, "What is the source of the fungi that you add to the roots when transplanting?" I assume it's the same as in the soil (from your fungi culture dish.)

The loving attention you give your girls shows in your pictures. Takes a real man to keep a whole harem happy. LOL Keep on crankin' out the progress reports. (You aint the only one learning a lot from your efforts!)

 

[vonforne]

I have multiple n-p-k sources in my soil (immediate, short, and long term release). I use tea mostly just to feed the critters in the soil, with an occasional foliar spray just to give the leaves some love. LOL

This is something I have been silently working on. I like doing this and it seems to work very well don't you think. I have been also adding RP to the soil but generally do not list it. I have also been using bone meal and guanos together for the P. Alfalfa, guanos and other things for the N sources.

There are also a lot of NPK nutrients in the Mushroom compost that benefit the soil structure also.

For the fungi I start using Plant Success at the first transplant and continue up until flowering transplant. The cultured fungi is something I add later as a booster of sorts.

Another thing that I do also is top dress the cooking soil with POM guano. Yes POM! LOL I will take a small amount and spread it around on top of the pile of soil before I cover it up with the tarp or plastic. When I come back to mix it in a few days it has this white fungus growing on the top of the pile of soil like snow.

Soil building is as fun as the growing part. You know when the plants look good that you are going in the right direction.

This has turned out to be a good discussion thread. Good job everyone.

V