Freezing water on roots

[Anders89]

Ive noticed outdoor plants at lat 61 in norway creates bigger autoflowers. and that results in larger plants when there is cold weather in the spring. Down to 8c at night and sometimes cold rains 12-8 c.

At fall i have also tried regual strains like royal danex thypoon wich i believe is a afghan genetic, very fast flowering (considering almost no strains are able to finnish every year in norway because flowering starts late.

I noticed that bud growth stops before trichome growth when the temps get closer to 0. It does look like the added trichome growth never reach milky or brown as ive noticed more crystals but less maturity in total.

The Large autoflowers can also be explained by Norway having between 24 hours day in the north to 18.5 hours light in the south.

my 2 cents.

 

[teemu shalanie]

HI guys question on temp shocking

HI guys question on temp shocking

sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread ,to answer a few of your questions:
I have only done this temp shocking with different kushy types , never with a sativa dominant strain , so the "kush" might be able to handle n thrive in those temps, while the sativa would experience a BAD stressfull reaction.
Also I have never done a side by side/- ice water n cold temps for one, and then normal conditions for the other, due to the system I run being a nft hydro system.
I haven't noticed any loss of yield. however it does really bring out the purple in certain strains , with those tendencies.

To fast forward to the present my room has grow to the size that this Ice, in rez is unpractical and would be time consuming/costly to do for multiple rez's, so In last 24 -36 hrs I drop ac temps LOW, trying to cut it all in that "sweet spot" when its looks just perfect , (I get it to a point Where I feel I don't want any more light to hit em, Then start the black out/big chill, n take em down before they sit in dark for too long.
hope that clears a few things up for guys who would like to try this out ,....
TS

 

[Anders89]

It also seems like cold creates more roots in the early stages when its cold and leaf growth more in warm days. Could this weather in late stages of flower create a type of nutrient rush to the buds? to store for a warmer day?

 

[Weird]

it is theorized that the plant creates secondary metabolites to protect itself

my hypothesis is that for strains with this environmental trigger is that the cooling night time temps cause the plant to produce more oil to protect the flowering micro environment (which should be laden with maturing seed) from frost damage

there should be more than one cue that elicits sars responses

are they all the same? do they offer a cumulative benefit?

In natural environments the soil microbiology works hand in hand with plant growth and its activity is extremely sensitive to cold temps

shut down the soil shut down plant growth both secondary and primary metabolites

the plants rhizoshpere is essential to primary and secondary metabolite making cooling is counter intuitive since you are only slowing the plants capacity to produce either of these metabolites in the first place

 

[Anders89]

Or what if as i said The buds dont swell as much and therefore get a higher trichome ratio.

So it might be a optical illusion that you get more crystals. U just get more crystals on less bud for better or worse. On all the pics that is what it seems like.

But i also see some people say they see no difference in final dry weight. I believe some of the pictures prove my theory.

 

[pinkus]

I believe some of the pictures prove my theory.

Support it maybe, prove it not a chance.

Weird, oils (liquids) don't insulate well. HOWEVER the air layer that forms under a dense covering of capitate glands would. Just tweaking your explanation/theory. This would also go towards explaining the difference in sativa vs. indica (OK NLD and WLD) cultivar's resin glands.

EDIT: of course some oils/liquids are better than others as insulators, but in general they conduct heat much better than gas (air).

 

[Only Ornamental]

Or what if as i said The buds dont swell as much and therefore get a higher trichome ratio.

So it might be a optical illusion that you get more crystals. U just get more crystals on less bud for better or worse. On all the pics that is what it seems like.

But i also see some people say they see no difference in final dry weight. I believe some of the pictures prove my theory.

Considering that 'swelling' is at least in part truly swelling (with water and some dissolved minerals) and not growing (as building solid matter) may actually result in the same dry weight... but that remains to be proven

 

[Weird]

i didnt take those pictures to prove my anecdotal experience I just happened to have them up in my gallery I can find far more start examples but they are not the provoking evidence that makes me choose to do so

the huge difference is in the smoke

color and bag appeal mean nothing to me tbh, i am all about smells taste and character of smoke

i cant share those attributes on the internet but ive run enough elites and smoked them with people who have had enough of the same from others (including the breeders/selectors themselves) to know I am not the only one to notice there is a differential

there is a reason many elites get passed over as being mediocre and majority of the times it is because the environmental triggers that they were selected within are not replicated by the person they were passed too

I was using the same temp differential to get highland afghani and NL oasis to outperform the same cultivar being run in temp controlled rooms with 430 agro suns on movers, you know around the time of operation green merchant was going down.

I spent a good number of years running the same cultivars with same tech but different environments back then too as I do now

Research it, it has been documented elsewhere and and iirc it the study included gaschrom measurements of thc etc

 

[Weird]

its an illusion

 

[Anders89]

My theory is not proven but i said if there are less plant fiber and the same amount of trichomes it will be closer togheter and appear better for better(better effect,taste and worse(loose a little yield). If what i say is right u loose a little yield for a theoretically better smoke.

I wonder are the last extra trichomes created under colder conditions clear or are they amber and cloudy?

i also dont go for bag appeal alone. I know a little and i know you know more so just tell me when im wrong

Also i think what some of you mean by cold is not really cold at all. I have had plants survive 3 days of snow and still live 10-20 days til next snowfall and then slowly start to wilt when the ground is covered in snow that dont melt i live i Norway but i know this should happen in northern afghan mountains.
As long as they get strong light (light in the north has a higher blue spectrum and longer daylight hours 14.5 hours in the night during summer and 16-17.5 during fall. Also very very strong light at start and end of light spectrum. Also higher solar radiation levels.
they should have no problem to cope in cold temps down to 8-12 c as long as the ground dont hardfreeze.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I added it.
-SamS

sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread ,to answer a few of your questions:
I have only done this temp shocking with different kushy types , never with a sativa dominant strain , so the "kush" might be able to handle n thrive in those temps, while the sativa would experience a BAD stressfull reaction.
Also I have never done a side by side/- ice water n cold temps for one, and then normal conditions for the other, due to the system I run being a nft hydro system.
I haven't noticed any loss of yield. however it does really bring out the purple in certain strains , with those tendencies.

To fast forward to the present my room has grow to the size that this Ice, in rez is unpractical and would be time consuming/costly to do for multiple rez's, so In last 24 -36 hrs I drop ac temps LOW, trying to cut it all in that "sweet spot" when its looks just perfect , (I get it to a point Where I feel I don't want any more light to hit em, Then start the black out/big chill, n take em down before they sit in dark for too long.
hope that clears a few things up for guys who would like to try this out ,....
TS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Takhar province. Family from near there. But since russian war, a lot of family have moved around the ghan and settled in other locations, including out the country to tajik and uzbek.

hey Sam, i was reading a book earlier on, called 'the heart of dankness'. They mention a sam the skunkman in that, with regards to history of cannabis in europe. is that you? if so, hats off to you for all your adventures and contribution to the canna world.

Hello again _HK_,
Yes it is me, I am guilty......
I was wondering about your luck with Afghan seeds imported from Afghanistan.
#1 Did seeds collected in different areas give plants of many different qualties?
#2 Any thoughts on where you found the best, was the area or just the farmer?
#3 What areas did you feel were best?
#4
FYI I was there in 1971 it was very different as Hashish altho technically illegal was grown with government Ag help. The best hashish I saw came from the north up by Mazar i Sharif and around Balkh, so I guess the best seeds are from this area.
When I was there Hashish was not grown everywhere like it is now
or if it was I did not see or hear of it.
After the 1972 exit of the king all hashish declined in quality, this was also because the introduction of modern Afghani, soft, pilable, but greener then the older best qualties, and with adultrants added to keep the hashish soft and looking like it was number one. I liked the old water pressed and the old hand pressed resin that need nothing but a little heat to press fantastic, with just hands.
What area do the seeds you have grown come from?
Ever been to tajik and or uzbek? Did you see Cannabis being grown there for Hashish? Have you grown seeds from thoes areas?
My biggest problem with imported Afghani seeds are I get so many plants that are cabbage, so leafy and not so much resin, that and mildews, I hate mildew. Most of the Afghan seeds I get today are from further south, down to around Kandahar even.
When you go to Afghanistan do you travel much when there?
do you go to Mazar i sharif or Balkh? What time of year? Harvest time? That would be the best time to see the plants you collected seeds from, only the very very best plants.....
Of course only half the genes come from the mom the other half are from many many different males which is part of the reason that many Afghani seed batches give so many different types when grown out. That and locals moving seeds around afghanistan trying to find locations where Cannabis can be grown without problems. Not all nice and organized like back when the king was in power before 1972.
Well all the best,
-SamS

 

[Storm Shadow]

My Iranian Genetics come from like 7,000ft+ Elevation and its very cold up there

I've done the Ice Cold water trick to them and saw the same blah results... Forcing a plant to lockout Phosphorus has zero benefits

 

[Anders89]

Are soil more alkaline\base in cold regions because of winter cold slowing decomposition?

Can that explain the different reactions between strains from around euqator to the northern strains.

Also Cold air is extremely dry. Could chilling the roots create a reaction making it believe dry cold weather is coming. This would then maybe lead to more trichomes forming to protect against the dry air?

Cold rains\snowfalls in the north are often a precursor to extremely dry cold air in some cases.

Southern strains would have no reason to have that protective "gene" anymore

And to some of you experienced Northern indica growers! What would you say is the ideal day/night temps for a strain accustomed to cold weather?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Are soil more alkaline\base in cold regions because of winter cold slowing decomposition?

Can that explain the different reactions between strains from around euqator to the northern strains.

Maybe a bit, but the real differnece is terpene profiles.
-SamS

Also Cold air is extremely dry. Could chilling the roots create a reaction making it believe dry cold weather is coming. This would then maybe lead to more trichomes forming to protect against the dry air?

Cold rains\snowfalls in the north are often a precursor to extremely dry cold air in some cases.

Southern strains would have no reason to have that protective "gene" anymore

And to some of you experienced Northern indica growers! What would you say is the ideal day/night temps for a strain accustomed to cold weather?

X

 

[BagAppeal]

I treated the plant with ice water for the second time yesterday.
Had the water sitting full of ice cubes for a while too get it iced.
20 degrees in the shade outside.
Had a lock in the microscope yesterday , no visible changes so far.
Took a look today, and it seems like there is a small increase in thrichomes coming up in the middle of one of the leaves I have been watching, something like a small bubble emerging, as well as some of the already small bubbles have come up some more. Looks like there is something happening, but very little.

Will keep my eyes peeled.

All the best

BagAppeal

 

[Weird]

Are soil more alkaline\base in cold regions because of winter cold slowing decomposition?

Can that explain the different reactions between strains from around euqator to the northern strains.

Also Cold air is extremely dry. Could chilling the roots create a reaction making it believe dry cold weather is coming. This would then maybe lead to more trichomes forming to protect against the dry air?

Cold rains\snowfalls in the north are often a precursor to extremely dry cold air in some cases.

Southern strains would have no reason to have that protective "gene" anymore

And to some of you experienced Northern indica growers! What would you say is the ideal day/night temps for a strain accustomed to cold weather?

strains that are effected by cold differential require a 20 + negative differential from their PREFERED day time time temps (though ive had night time temps down to the 40s)

its that simple, start dropping those temps earlier enough before complete maturation to make a difference (dependent on period of maturation)

treating your toot zones with when your ready to harvest in hopes that you will magically get a plant to produce a remarkable amount of visible secondary metabolites defies logic.

Potency is the real differential not viable resin

I have well over 120+ success grows under my belt in the last 20 years. It equals a fair amount of observation of effect and causation.

outdoor growers get one a season, even if you squeeze out two grows every year you may go a lifetime without seeing that many shows. Because they are not working with artificial environments in the first place, they can only observe reactions to environmental they do not control

indoor growers control these variables and observe the same results. Control enough environments, run the same cultivars in them long enough, you observe a different set of variables that effect plant growth including phenotype expression and secondary metabolite production

I have be honest, the fact that most growers and breeders don't discuss the scope that the environment effects phenotype expression is a huge tell that most people simply don't understand it. I don't this, because I am not 1/10th as driven or focused as many of the growers here yet in my paltry experience I have far more testimony.

homogenous environments are reflected in the phenotype expression (or lack thereof) which effects selection conversely if you control the environment you can force cues.

some of this information could be distilled from any growers existing records if they took measurements of psycho actives with scientific equipment

go back to the dates of those records, the years and strains and amounts of psychoactives and look at the weather history for those seasons and see if there is any correlating pattern between psychoactives and weather patterns most especially night and day time temperature trends.

they might also find interesting trends regarding primary metabolite growth

but lets face it, the real reason people want to pour ice on their plants at the end of harvest and get more resin is because they are greedy

its safe to take a plant ready for harvest and fuck with it a day or two, lol what are you going to do at best, kill a plant ready for harvest and harvest it anyway?

the thought of cold temps, just like late flower foliar or any other technique that replicates natural environmental variables frightens most growers because they are afraid of losing money or fair enough for some, medicine.

if you can't grow and can't add dynamic natural variables into the equation your short changing yourself and your plants. the natural world that has already exhibited the fact that these variables do exist hand in hand with healthy thriving plants.

secondary metabolites are created throughout the life cycle of the plant based on environmental variables

lose those variables you wont get full potential

replicate them all you will

bottled agriculture products are just that, discovered environmental inputs that have direct causation on primary and/or secondary metabolite growth

you cant bottle environment, its all on you

 

[Weird]

another aspect of this that may effect all strains is the delicate nature of certain terpins and perhaps other components of secondary metabolites that are also effected

i find many indoor growers "cook" off many of the terpins (correct me if i am using the wrong terminology) with high heat at the end of their grows

plants love warmth and you can have vigorous growth in warm/hot temps

but many of those delicate terpins* burn off in those same temps if they are experiencing them in late flower

since they are created dynamically you can keep warm until later in flower and then you can reduce temps to elicit a boost and to preserve them

does temperature elicit SARS response and would it do so with a frozen rhizosphere?

 

[_HK_]

Sam, thanks for response.
I can PM you some details if ok for you?

I have not much information,but my uncle will be able to tell you everything he knows. He went and got seed from farmers and breeders. He is an aid/refugee worker, so he brings resources/aid into country, without gov redtape and tax . different type of smuggling i suppose.hahaha

He knows most of the ghan inside out, trying to get medicines and tents, educational equipment to hard to reach places. He knows all the right people/tribes to move freely with no worries, apart from drones. I bet he would love to chat to you about certain things. He has seeds from Tajik and Uzbek and all over ghan and also certain areas in pakistan .
My seeds are from my uncle, the seeds are from near where we come from. ie our hometown. he will give you better details than i can.


P.S. the book i mentioned you were in, you are named by your full name. Im not tyring to make people aware, but i cant pm you yet. I just got scared for your safety due to real name also written with internet name. Just thought id let you know , incase you were not informed by them.

Have a great weekend.

 

[Anders89]

Please post the details so all can see if possible. This is interesting

Here in scandinavia we have some extremely fast indicas with sativaleafs and airy buds and even some dense nugget strains that can finnish in a 4-5 month window from seed. up to latitude 64 in finnland i believe.
I believe most of them have afghan or lebanese genetics from the 70s
Some are even semi autoflowering as early as 17-19 hours daylight. Some can yield 300 g+ in that short a window and they dont seem to mind cold dry weather. Anyone know where these genes could come from?