flowering with MH for a more complex high

[tan]

I heard from experienced growers that using a MH light for flowering creates a more complex effect in the high.

Any truth to this?

 

[GDB]

This seems pretty doubtful to me since MH just gives off more blue light it wouldn't necessarily affect the complexity or psycho-activeness. The only thing I've seen is the amount of UV light affecting resin production.

 

[Albert Hofmann]

I heard from experienced growers that using a MH light for flowering creates a more complex effect in the high.

Any truth to this?

This is one of the dumber things that I have heard in recent memory ...if you want to experiment with different highs from the same strain, try harvesting at different trichome maturity times. i.e. clear, cloudy, amber

 

[British_Bulldog]

Albert Hofmann, that's not true about it being dumb. Using MH in the flowering phase does affect the high, as it's using a different spectrum of light.

The best results, however, for yield, potency and complexity of high, are to have mixed spectrum lighting, e.g. 60% HPS and 40% MH approximately - this gives the best results, when considering the balance of yield/potency/complexity of high; not only from my own extensive experience, but also that of others who have experimented a lot too.

Results of experiments:

All HPS - best yield, lack of complexity of high

All MH - lowest yield, more complex high

Mixed Spectrum - More HPS - good yield, balanced & complex high


It's also worth remembering that, contrary to the myth in the canna-growing world that HPS simulates nature in flowering, in places like Afghanistan at the end of flowering, there is more blue spectrum in the sunlight than the orange in HPS.


BTW: This post was from OT1/Oldtimer1 (one of the founders of OG) on June 14, 2002 at a UK site called uk420.com:

Oldtimer1:

I have been growing and testing lighting systems for over 30 years. When we started we knew nothing, the first cabinet had a mix of grolux, warm white and cool white fluorescent tubes round the walls of the cabinet and a mercury lamp overhead. This was before metal arc, metal halide and son-t plus lamps were introduced. We have never stopped trying to improve the quality of the grass produced indoors.

This test is just using a 600w MH in combination with a 400w son-t plus light over a 20 sq ft area. This is to give an idea how the plants do under this combination, as every environment requires tweaking to get the best out of the plants. Once this is done we will do a comparative grow side by side against our standard light combination, which is a 600w son-t plus and a 400w HQI-T MH.

Our aim is not so much quantity [although that is important as well] but quality and the complexity of the high. We are looking to get the best potential the genetics in our collection are capable of producing. We know from experience that the worst possible lighting environment for producing potency during flowering is the sodium lamp, The 600w sodium/400w MH is a good compromise but lacks that final edge the MH alone brings. But I’m hoping the 600w MH/400w S will be better than the reverse combo.

KC33 yes its new.

bc pete I’m aware of the fall off of both MH and sodium lamps. It happens you can’t compare the two when it comes to lumens for photosynthesis its the par output that counts even that is not directly relevant when it comes to the spectrums that stimulates the plant to produce the most complex thc its genetic makeup is capable of.

OP thanks for the figures, Venture recommend replacing their 400w MH lamps every 20,000 hrs. We change ours every 4,500 hrs about a years use on 12/12 as they are only used during flowering. As we veg with sodium only, and are used it in combo when flowering they get changed every year as well ie at about 5000 hrs

I posted the comments below in another forum here before, so you have a drift of some of the conclusions we have drawn to date, I'm reposting it here.
>>>>>>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~repost~~~~~~~~~~~
It looks like I will be a lone voice here. We did comparative tests in in 92/3 between Phillips son-t plus and the son-ta [agro] using known mother line clones. The spec after the initial 100hrs was 52kl for the agro and 56.5kl for the plus. Without going into too great a detail. The yield from the agro light was 21.7% lower.

In 96 we did a similar comparison between the osram 600w nav-t-super 90kl and the osram 600w nav-t-planta 78kl. Once again the yield was some 17.6% lower ie in both cases more than would be expected from the lower lumen output. In both cases the quality of the high and bud density was not as good with the so called blue enhanced lights.

Unfortunately an awful lot of absolute garbage has been written and continually repeated and republished over the years. Drug cannabis only originates from areas in the world where the overall light spectrum never drops below 5400?k. The mellow warm orange light of autumn and its effect on cannabis is just some stoners dream and total crap. If you were up in the Hindu kush [about as far north as really potent cannabis grows wild] long after the harvest and the snow line has come down and and killed the plants! Even then the light is still in the high energy part of the spectrum ie blues and violet.

Virtually all the the base varieties that make up the named indoor lines in Holland today were originally selected and bred in the states. They were developed using metal arc lighting, nice potent varieties. When David Watson took some of these lines to Holland and opened the first seed bank, the Dutch started growing puff inside as well using these lines as they came available. The farmers son’s who were already used to growing under glass using high bay supplementary lighting with low energy requirement crops like chrysanthemums to tomatoes. Took to it like ducks to water and it was only a short step taking the same systems completely indoors using the same low energy spectrum lights and more to the point breeding under them. I suspect this is the main reason for the steady decline in potency of Dutch genetics over the last 20 years.

It is also interesting that some of the small boutique American breeders have now developed varieties that stand out head and shoulders above the so called premier Dutch seed banks when it comes to potency and quality. I think this may well be due to them using mixed spectrum lighting in their breeding rooms and some also using supplementary uv for selective pressure.

I suspect some of the newer breeders growing and selecting under polytunnels in Switzerland may well start producing better quality and higher potency vars as time goes by as well. Not just because of the amount of plants they are selecting from but also from the enhanced light spectrum that is inherent at the altitude they are growing at. Also the polythene does not block the uv and the higher end of the blue spectrum like glass does. I remember Wernard saying years back that identical cuttings grown in Holland under polythene against a glasshouse were far more potent because the poly didn't block the full spectrum of the sunlight. We have done similar experiments in the grow room with high potency clone line plants and it holds true there as well. A clear 1kw HQI-T MH produces the most potent weed followed closely by a mix of 600w son-t and a clear 400w HQI-T not quite as potent with slightly more yield, followed a long long way back for potency by a 1kw son-t-plus but about 8% higher yield in weight than the pure halide. My personal choice for growing are the mixed lights as its really flexible in what you can do. For breeding I go for pure halide all the way. So basically all our findings go right against current thinking. But we are only interested in quality, what the weed does when smoked and not the biggest weight per watt.

Finally HPI-T halides as made by Phillips are hopeless where as Ventures HQI-T lamps are really good and have been made so they can be run directly off sodium ballasts. I have nothing to report on the Venture or Iwasaki 600w HQI-T metal halide lamps but we hope to be doing some test grows later this year or early next.

http://www.uk420.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php/t3625.html

Peace

 

[Albert Hofmann]

I'm sticking with my original statement. Plants produce trichomes or they don't...it's a defensive mechanism for the plants to protect themselves. Different light does not produce different trichomes. The effects that you guys are talking about has to do with harvest time and curing which affect levels of cbd, cbn, thc. That's from my almost 18 years of experience

 

[Guest]

I'm sticking with my original statement. Plants produce trichomes or they don't...it's a defensive mechanism for the plants to protect themselves. Different light does not produce different trichomes. The effects that you guys are talking about has to do with harvest time and curing which affect levels of cbd, cbn, thc. That's from my almost 18 years of experience

Very correct, but also depending on the light used can effect when and how the plant finishes, When i use mh it makes the buds denser, but finish longer, hps bigger and fluffier, but finish sooner, so in a way you are controling the potency of the plant with the spectrum. If the same plant goes longer, it will have more THC, finishes sooner less. I'm also sure that there are about 200 things more important than this for potency though.

 

[titoon29]

Albert Hoffman, i won't be so sure, it could be possible in theory that different light can change the effect, by changing the cannabinoids ratios... Proving it's wrong would be impossible because we still don't know anything about a lot of cannabinoids...
For example i ve heard a lot that quality of the weed under CFL was very good, but never compare myself...
But as you said, on the other hand, cannabinoids ratio are genetically determined, so if you run any clone under hps, mh, cfl, thc ratio should be the same...
Have you ever tried to gave mh spectrum to your flowering room ? Any details on a same clone which had exactly the same effect on mh/hps and hps only ?

So i 'm wondering !

Titoon

 

[British_Bulldog]

The effects that you guys are talking about has to do with harvest time and curing which affect levels of cbd, cbn, thc.

No, what we are talking about is using a different spectrum of light to enhance the high, in terms of potency and complexity.

In your 18 years of growing, have you experimented with mixing HPS and MH, and just using MH for flowering?

If you're just making comments based on what you think is "logical" in your mind, and not based on field testing and practical results from experimentation, then I can't see how you can justify what you are saying.

I have experimented and noticed differences, as has OT1, who is a highly respected and accomplished grower.

He specialises in old school Hazes, and has grown all sorts of other strains too, currently having ACE Seeds representing his treasured genetics (see http://www.seedbay.com/index.php?a=1005&b=68&page=1 - Oldtimer's Haze lines), and I have worked with a wide variety of strains over the years, and a diverse range of lighting.

 

[floppyfundanglr]

so then growing outdoors will give you the same potency too is what im gathering from your words? You think there is no difference and that light is light. I would really like to challenge that in a side by side with clones. I cant prove anything but i find it hard to believe that spectrum will not cause changes in percentages of thc, cbn's, and cbd's. Your probably right though cause weed effects everyone the same.

peace

 

[Guest]

With hps and mh you are trying to reproduce nature, nutural full spectrum lighting. I think this is why nothing indoors can touch well grown green house herb with the sun. Giving everything the plant need is the most natural way, to get potent herb. The closest spectrum to the sun the better. So about 75% hps 25% mh to get close to what the sun is.

 

[bounty29]

I'm sticking with my original statement. Plants produce trichomes or they don't...it's a defensive mechanism for the plants to protect themselves. Different light does not produce different trichomes. The effects that you guys are talking about has to do with harvest time and curing which affect levels of cbd, cbn, thc. That's from my almost 18 years of experience

MH has some UV rays, and the plants defense against this is more trich production. Different spectrums of light affect the plants differently, to say all light makes the same bud, even after it's been verified there are differences, just takes away from your credibility.

 

[Guest]

On a side note, my freind was growing one of my clones and did everything normal with cfl's till about week 4, then he introduced a germicidal killin uv lamp ... This eventually made the plant stop growing around week 7 or 8, it made the plant have mutant leaves, and frost up more in appearance, but pritty much was the exact smoke as how my clones turned out.

 

[Albert Hofmann]

Couple things:
1) Of course I have tried side by side experiments with the same strains (mh only, hps only, combos of both, sunlight, etc.) I'm a big believer in the 75% hps 25%mh.

2) When this post was started it was about different light affecting trichome characteristics NOT trichome production...my comments were about the chartacteristics.

3) As for growing outdoors, my experience has been that the great resin production that you get is due to atmospheric conditions i.e. greater day/night temp changes, wind, rain, etc. 500 nanometers is just as blue inside as out...it's simply a question of intensity.

There are all kinds of things that you can do to increase trichome production, my favorite indoors is to get my room temp down to 60 when the lights are off. I have also noticed that the buds that are directly in front of my intake fan are frostier...because they get pummeled with blowing air (wind)

 

[gramma watt]

This thread is giving me a complex....

IMO...(who gives a $hit) the genetics of the plant determines the aspects of the high......

 

[floppyfundanglr]

woot woot

 

[speedracer-x]

On a side note, my freind was growing one of my clones and did everything normal with cfl's till about week 4, then he introduced a germicidal killin uv lamp ... This eventually made the plant stop growing around week 7 or 8, it made the plant have mutant leaves, and frost up more in appearance, but pritty much was the exact smoke as how my clones turned out.

Your friend had the wrong kind of uv bulb...There are three kinds and only one is usefull. UVA will make more leaf matter in veg, which is ok (sidenote: mercury vapor lamps have a decent amount of UVA and if you can take the outer housing of the lamp off safely, this can be a great supplementary light in veg for some added leaf matter and possible vigor). UVC should be avoided at all times. That is the one your friend has. It is the same UV that they use to purify water. It kills everything, IIRC, by messing with the DNA.

UVB is the one in flower that may raise your frost count and may make for a bit trippier of an experience. Anyone who has ever owned reptiles will know of the UVB floros out there. The 10.0 and next one down, either 8.0 or 7.0 are the ones to go with if you want to try any experiments, you may not want to start with running it the whole lights on time though. More of an introduction in the middle of lights on and work your way out type thing.

 

[speedracer-x]

I just wanted to add that my prior comment was not taking into account how ripe the thc glands are.