Flowering Trouble - H E L P

[Simpleton]

Fan leaves are starting to yellow and brown between veins with the brown areas being dry and crumbly, at the base of plant and progressing towards middle. Plants were flipped at 8" and have reached 30" to present date. It has gotten very crowded. Also, in the last few days I noticed they were drying every two days and switched from every three to every two days watering.

Could it be lack of light?


What STRAIN are you growing? GDP
What was the establishing technique? Clone
What is the age of your plants? 3wks into flower
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Flower
What Technique are you using? JOG
What substrate/medium are you using? 50/50 Soil/Perlite - 8Gal Pots/3 Multi-branched Plants Each Pot/4 buckets under one 600hps
What is the Nutrient temperature? 78F
What Nutrient's are you using? Orchid Food (20-14-13 - 10.59%Nitrate,9.41%Ammoniacal -Magnesium-Boron-Copper-Iron-Manganese-Molybdenum-Zinc) and Maxicrop Kelp. One Teaspoon Every Other Watering (Once A Week - Other Watering Only Includes Maxicrop - 2 waterings total per week)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 750ppm Total - 200ppm well water + 550ppm Nute
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 6.9
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Yes
When was your last watering? Today
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) Today - Given Tea That Included Blood, Molasses, Kelp, Supersoil, High P Guano To Try And Correct Problem.
What size bulb are you using? 600HPS
What is the distance to the canopy? 14"
What is your RH Factor? 60%
What is the canopy temperature? 82F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 69-85F
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? Oscillating Entire Area
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Hard - 200ppm
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? None Applied
Are plant's infected with pest's? No

 

[Daemon]

I am having almost the exact same problem with some of my plants, though I am growing in ProMix. I was thinking maybe it was from not enough light hitting the bottoms as well but I redid my lights and it isn't helping...

 

[Space Ghost]

your ph is pretty high, i'd drop it to 6.2 or so and bump up the feeding regime a little and see how the plants respond.

some full plant shots would help too.

 

[Core]

yes looks like a ph thing to me....and what 'soil' are you using with that perlite...soilless or soil??

 

[Simpleton]

Flowering Trouble

Flowering Trouble

Plants are in Supersoil Brand Mix with 50% perlite.

Tops look great but I am sure this problem will affect the final flowers in terms of yield and quality.

I had this problem before and the only thing that stopped it was the application of tea as described above. I went over stich's deficiency/common problems associated with the plant and the only thing I could really compare it to was a phosphorus def. I am continually coming across growers who balance the ph to 6 which I am not doing.

I think maybe this is a combo of high ph - stock water is 7.8 and with the addition of nutrients brings it down to 6.9 but is probably rising after the application to pots. It is kinda hard to test the runoff in 8 gallon pots with 30" plants. They are sitting in a trough and collecting water after runoff is virtually impossible.

The second part of the problem is not enough nutrition. At 750ppm the plants are only receiving 550ppm nutrient. The thing that makes me scratch my head is that they were really dark green, long petioles, and growing rapidly before this prob started. I really didn't see the prob until they started putting on the popcorn. Initially I thought I may have overfed.

I appreciate your responses and hope you guys can help me gain control over their health.

I have included a couple more photos for your observation.

Thanks again.

 

[Simpleton]

Any Additional Info?

Any Additional Info?

Plants were up'd to 1200 ppm(1000ppm nutrient + 200ppm water) and are still progressively yellowing and yellowing going necrotic.

Need some advice here.

Thanks.

 

[Daemon]

Have you tried a flush? It could be minor lockup, though it's hard to say without pics.

I'd wait for some more experienced advice though.

 

[Simpleton]

Had photos on here but cannot view them now. I cannot upload either. I'm thinking they could use a flush.

Should I ph the water used to flush?

Thanks.

 

[phatnuggetz]

of course you have to ph your water before you flush the plant. buy clearex,its amazing at periodic fluching and will revive plants suffering fom lockout. Plus when i use clearex i only have to flush water with a half gallon per plant in 3 gallon bags, other then the normal 3-6 gallons of water per gallon of growing medium, god luck!

 

[Simpleton]

Flushed em today and tested runoff.

PH 7
PPM 1100PPM

The Nutrients I'm using are orchid nutrients and are designed to be used continuously at 1Tsp per gal (every watering). I did some research on orchids and it appears they really do not require large amounts of nutrition. It seemed strange that the manufacturer suggested using the nutes continuously.

I talked with my local hydro shop and they thought that if it was alright to use on orchids continuously than it might be ok to use on my plants.

I am not sure if the nutes were the cause of lockout or if I am just suffering a burn from the nutrients. Either way, I figured a flush was a good idea to head in. As I said before, The plants were very dark green, growing very rapidly, and had long petioles before the problem started.

My local hydroponic proprietor is suggesting switching to more crop specific nutrients. He claims the quality cannot compare to "inferior" nutrients that can be bought in home depot or walmart. He claims that it would cost miracle grow a fortune to utilize the grade of nutrients that go into the higher priced stuff.

I am a little torn over the issue as I have grown beautiful plants using "inferior" nutrients.

I'm rambling. Thanks for the advice.

When the pots dry from the flush, what should they receive on the next watering?

Thanks

 

[phatnuggetz]

do you have a good run off occur with each feeding? I think the ph is is high, but thats why i dont like soil and use hydro, the ph is alot harder to control, even though many say ph doesnt matter in soil, it does if it gets to high or to low. And why would you take all the time to grow plants and buy a setup and build the table,and buy a ph meter, and not buy nutrients meant for dichotomous plants? i dont mean to sound like a dick but that was a big mistake to begin with. There is a reason orchid food is orchid food and resin producing plants require resin producing nutrients.Im sure you have grown good plants with inferioir nutrients that came out nice, but each strain is different, some are vigorous and will grow good no matter how much crap they go thruogh, and some do need much to be hurt bad. have grown gdp many times, and i found it to be a picky plant. How much did you flush each pot with? depending on that is what you would give them next. If you flushed them very mildy with a lil runoff of pure water, that aint going to do much for a lockout problem. I you flushed them properly then i would go buy nutes meant for cannabis, GH,AN, canna..etc then feed them with a normal dosage, I would never go over a 1000pm with gh though, unless you have alot of runoff each watering

 

[Simpleton]

Buckets were flushed with 30 gallons of water, approx. 7.5 gallons per 8 gal pot.
I was thinking of getting new nutes before they go dry and giving them a mild dose hopefully maintaining their growth and getting them through flowering.

I am the type of guy to get a good bang for my buck and using cheaper nutes usually got me through with most strains. But with GDP all I have ever known kinda went out the window because of the strain's needs. Just all around totally different. Long to root, picky with nutes, not a lot of height after flip and just pretty finicky. I like a challenge and the potential yield of quality of this strain. I just need to work out the kinks and I am sure I'll get it nailed.

I think I am going to have to switch to a new medium next time around. Supersoil used to be pretty dependable and probably still is with strains that aren't finicky about where their roots go. I need a foolproof system to drop this strain into where I won't have problems with it.

One of my first runs with GDP utilized a different brand of orchid food and I monitored PPM and water amounts very closely. The end result was incredible. Monster chunks of awesome quality.

I am ready to stop cutting corners and ensure myself of success by using proper conditions through and through.

Thanks for the help.

 

[crownedsparrow]

i say foxfarm!

 

[Guest]

Your ph is too high. Depending on your soil, you could be locking out a lot of different things. My 50/50 coco/perlite stays at 6.5 and I water at about 6.0. This produces great results. I am currently running GDP - no issues.

That fert has tooo much nitrogen for proper flowering as well.

I have used orchid BLOOM food as a flowering booster in place of KoolBloom / Hammerhead / Hydroplex, etc in the past with great success. I only use it at half strength in addition to my regular feeding (PBP). Just make sure the P and K are higher than the N on the NPK listing.

 

[phatnuggetz]

hey simpleton, i think your going to be fine! it sounds like you know what your doing, just was taught a new lesson from GDP. Beleive me, i know how senstive this strain can be, It is the reason I switched to hydro from soil,becuase i felt I needed to be %100 in control of my ph and ppm. I am now able to grow it flawless, although it still vegs slow and has pretty much nooo stretch after the flip. ooo another thing, I would not use well water that is 200 ppm, do you know what is in it?jorge cervantes indoor bible states that if your water is 300ppm and above,you must use RO water,your pushing it with 200ppm ,Unless you have major runoff each feeding, that is most likely your cause of problem, your locking out your plants with hard water,it could have a high sodium content,wich would do that.do you allow at least 25 percent runoff with each feeding? .And if you dont have a high runoff, then all that is just going to stay in your pots. another thing why do you have 8 gallon pots? is the whole life of the plant going to be in the pot for 8 months, did you veg for about 3-4 months? if not then thats wayyyyyy to big, A good rule of thumb is for each month you plan to grow in the medium you should have a gallon, so if your plants life is only going to be 3 months from start to finish then put them in 3 gallon bags,or bigger if you want more veg time then 1 month. strainwhore is right, your PK should always be higher then your N in flowering. good luck my freind!

 

[Simpleton]

"hey simpleton, i think your going to be fine! it sounds like you know what your doing"

Thanks man. A decade or so will gain you a little knowledge. I just never had a picky strain before and this one can be picky.

"Believe me, i know how senstive this strain can be, It is the reason I switched to hydro from soil,becuase i felt I needed to be %100 in control of my ph and ppm."

I was kinda wondering if this plant may prefer hydro. I have heard that some strains prefer a hydro environment.

"I am now able to grow it flawless, although it still vegs slow and has pretty much no stretch after the flip."

Plant veggies pretty good and not too slow in rockwool. Rockwool blocks seems to have speeded things up a bit. As far as height after flip, trust me on this, you'll see a massive difference in size using larger buckets. These were flipped at 6-8" and are now 30". I had em in 2gal buckets before and when flipped at 10-12", only got to 18-24" and were really rootbound at harvest. I am sure they were rootbound way before that.

"Another thing, I would not use well water that is 200 ppm, do you know what is in it?"

I have no idea. It concerns me and i am positive it is contributing to my problems. I'm out west so I am assuming it is calcium or magnesium or both. Lotsa sand in that there well. Probably should get RO sys. Hydrangeas outside show lime induced chlorosis after water application.

"Do you allow at least 25 percent runoff with each feeding? .And if you don't have a high runoff, then all that is just going to stay in your pots."

I do have runoff. Probably not 25%. I apply 1gal to each pot every 2 days now. I have a bit coming out of the drainage holes (1/2 qt.) but didn't drain to waste. It just sat under the pots and was reabsorbed. Again, with all other strains, not a problem.


"Another thing why do you have 8 gallon pots? Is the whole life of the plant going to be in the pot for 8 months, did you veg for about 3-4 months? If not then thats way to big, A good rule of thumb is for each month you plan to grow in the medium you should have a gallon, so if your plants life is only going to be 3 months from start to finish then put them in 3 gallon bags,or bigger if you want more veg time then 1 month."

As I mentioned before, the size after flip is way more in the range I like to be in. Larger. Plants are rooted for 3 wks in 1.5" cubes, sent to 4" blocks for 3 more wks, transplanted to 8 gal pots and placed under a 400 MH for 3 addtional wks, and finally sent to flower for the final 9 wks. With three plants per 8 gallon container, they are getting approx 2.6 gal of dirt per plant but without root constriction.


"Strainwhore is right, your PK should always be higher then your N in flowering."

I am heading in that direction. Know of good quality nutes for a good price that will work good with this strain?

"Good luck my freind!"

Thanks broseph.

 

[bighogg]

Dude. From the picture you provided your plants looks great to me. so unless there is some kind of damage to the plant tops, that i can't see... the reason those leaves look like that is because they can't get enough light due to the fact that you have already done such a great job in using all available space!!

DON'T add more light, there is plenty of light there, if you want you can clip some of the largest fan leaves away, but don't overdo it!

Good job!! Don't stress.

cheers
bighogg

 

[Simpleton]

Plants don't seems to be continuing on the path they were on.

Gonna give em some mellow tea for the next watering and see how they do.

I love this plant.

I've never not been excited about a grow in the last 17yrs.