Finding a Keeper: High End, Low End, or Roll Your Own?

[Joe A. Grower]

Hey all, I was shopping for seeds the other day since my clone sources haven't been coming up with anything new and interesting lately. Anyone who has watched the seed market has probably noticed that the prices seem to have diverged on the extremes. The low end keeps getting lower, and the high end keeps getting higher.

For instance, all of Nirvana Seeds products can be had for $15 - $18 a pack. On the other extreme, DJ Shorts new efforts are selling in the $130 - $150 per pack range. Breeders of feminized seeds are sometimes asking over $200 for a pack. With such a range of prices, I began asking myself "what is the best strategy for finding a top-producing keeper mom given a limited budget."

Lets say you have $200 you are willing to spend to find one keeper mom. Which strategy do you pick?

Strategy #1: Richie Rich
If you believe the seed breeder propaganda, there really is a huge difference in quality between "real breeders" and "knockoff artists." With this strategy, you would go ahead and buy 2 packs of Serious Seeds AK-47, or maybe just 1 pack of Arjan's Haze, on the assumption that these breeders have done such a superior job of breeding that you will definitely find a keeper in every pack.

Strategy #2: Cheap Charlie
So maybe the "real" breeders do have a superior product, but just how much better is it really? Can 2 packs of Serious' AK-47 produce more keepers than 13 packs of Nirvana's AK-48? Will 1 pack of Arjans Haze blow away 13 packs of Nirvana's generic Haze? This strategy says the basic genetics are still there in the F2 generation, so "more beans" is superior to "better beans."

Strategy #3: Rube Goldberg
This strategy takes the principle behind Strategy #2 and takes it one better. Suppose you take your $200 and buy some basic breeding stock, make your own cross, and then have hundreds or even thousands of beans to grow out in order to find a keeper. This strategy would pass up Sensi Seeds $150/pack "NL5 x Haze," and purchase the parents for breeding stock instead. With a couple of good NL5 and Haze parents, a clever grower could have a virtually unlimited number of beans to grow out in the search for that killer pheno.

So what do you think? Which method makes the best use of limited funds -- Richie, Charlie, or Rube?

 

[dex0r]

#3 of course but it requires being able to have a male chamber. I'd love to do that but I'm just not able to, only have 1 small space in which to do a grow.

 

[NiteTiger]

#3 please I've never been scared of some extra effort.

 

[Guest]

ok... arjans haze isnt pure haze or anything.. i wouldnt even touch anything from greenhouse seeds...

if you feel you can really compare with the possible parent selection numbers that sensi worked with.. go for it.. either way with the right lines you could make something great

 

[Closet Funk]

I pick #2 because I rarely have the extra cash to buy expensive genetics. The strains I have ordered I got great deals on or got them for free from generous growers. Let's just say my most expensive strains came free. I got some cheap strains and some expensive and I got to say that AK48 from Nirvana was excellent. It goes to show you it's what you choose in the cheap department. It doesn't matter because I'm going to make crosses and experiment as much as I can with all the genetics I got. I'm sure I'll find some keepers sooner or later.

 

[Joe A. Grower]

ok... arjans haze isnt pure haze or anything.. i wouldnt even touch anything from greenhouse seeds...

Let me state for the record that I have nothing against Greenhouse Seeds. (Thought I'd throw that in before this thread descends into another Arjan flame-fest). The reason I mentioned Arjan's Haze is because it is one of the most expensive, non-feminized strains on the market. At $190 per pack, our hypothetical grower with $200 in his pocket could only afford a single pack.

The question is" "Are 15 of Arjan's beans going to give a better keeper than 130 of Nirvana's beans?"

if you feel you can really compare with the possible parent selection numbers that sensi worked with.. go for it..

And that is the proper response to those who chose #3! With $200 in your pocket, you can only afford one or two packs of seeds for each parent in your breeding project. Can you really select parents from among a few dozen plants that are anywhere near as good as parents selected from hundreds of plants? How many seeds from your own F1 cross do you need to grow to find a mom equal to that produced by a professional breeder? 100? 500? 1,000? Or maybe your moms will never be the equal of the mom's produced from top quality seed because you never had the best quality parents.

Or maybe these "tier 1" breeders are just money grubbing hacks and you can do just as well on your own!

Just playing Devil's Advocate a bit . . .

 

[Joe A. Grower]

I pick #2 because I rarely have the extra cash to buy expensive genetics.

Well, the question I'm posing in this thread assumes that you do have the money to buy the best out there. Specifically, I'm asking what would be the best way to spend $200 on seeds. Do you go for the top shelf, or do you buy lesser beans, but more of them?

I got some cheap strains and some expensive and I got to say that AK48 from Nirvana was excellent. It goes to show you it's what you choose in the cheap department.

So have you also grown Serious' AK-47? I'm curious how well the Nirvana F2's compare to the original. Is it worth $100 a pack to get seeds from the original breeder?

 

[Guest]

keep it to clone varieties passed around among friends



thats where my best stuff has come from

 

[fjällhöga]

IMHO go with the originals and not with NRS AK48 which cant be a f2 from the o´s as they need 65 days at least and its not possible to bring ak´s 12/12 time down to 48 days as nirvana seeds mentioned.IMO they just wanted to hop pn the AK hype and earn along with Simon from Serious some serious money... so my advice is to go with 2-3 strains from original , plant all beans at a time and select through all individuals to choose which is ya desired keeper. than plan what you want to cross and what the offspring to be wanted to be ..... and now yarr on the journey.
Fj

 

[SpacemanSpliff]

Another thing that some of you are overlooking is the fact that many people just don't have the space to grow out 100 plants to look for 1 keeper. Even if you do, is it really worth the time and effort? Growing 100 plants out is no mean feat.

Just do your research, and buy the best seeds you can find. They'll pay for themselves in the long run, especially if you take a mother. Unless, of course, you have the time and inclination for #3, in which case, go for it.

 

[Closet Funk]

Actually the one pheno I got from the AK48 was excellent. I thought it was very potent and was one of the best tasting strains I've smoked. I haven't grown AK-47 but the 48 was good for $60 cheaper. It's too bad I didn't keep a cutting from her. She was a keeper just by potency and taste. Check out my AK-48 report in the Cannabis/Hash Reports.

 

[Joe A. Grower]

Another thing that some of you are overlooking is the fact that many people just don't have the space to grow out 100 plants to look for 1 keeper. Even if you do, is it really worth the time and effort? Growing 100 plants out is no mean feat.

Not everyone grows in a closet, Spaceman. One could easily grow out 100 plants in a small bedroom with just a couple of lights. Personally, I grow in 24'x25' garage with 11kW worth of light between the veg and flower areas.

Whether growing out 100 plants to get a keeper is worthwile depends on what you are doing with it. To a closet grower running a 400W, it would never be worth it. For a commercial grower the money and effort to obtain top quality genetics is most definitely worth it. For a 9 light setup like mine, at SoCal wholesale prices, an extra ounce of yield per light adds an extra $10,000 per year in profit.

If I only grew one strain, it would be a no-brainer. I'd spend a grand or so to buy 10 packs of top quality seed, find my killer mom, and go about my business. However, I grow for the dispensary medical mj market, which means I have to have variety. I need to grow at least 4 - 5 strains at any given time, and I need to bring new flavors to the market on a regular basis if I want to stay competitive. I can't justify dropping a grand for each new strain.

So my question remains: "What is the best way to find a killer mom for $200?"

 

[SpacemanSpliff]

Well, in your case, since it's medical, I'd buy the very best seeds you can. They'll pay for themselves. 2 packs of high quality seeds is better than 10 packs of Nirvana almost any day of the week (unless it's like AK-47/48, in which case it's probably safe to just go with the f2. You'll find a keeper). Just make sure you're paying for quality, not hype.

And I know not everyone grows in a closet. I don't either.

 

[Guest]

I would buy 2 or 3 pcks of past Can. Cup winners from a few years ago like White russian or what ever from like late 90's they are more stable and the price has dropped,don't buy this years new flavor not worth the money.all it takes is 1 fast growing,healthy male of what ever pack, save pollin and just hit a few buds on each plant you want seeds from. as simple as that good luck. oh yea I guess thank makes me opt.#3

 

[gOurd^jr.]

Well for growing medical Buying 2-3 packs of higher quality seeds should be worth it compared to getting 13 packs of Cheaper seeds. I would go for option 3 though, just pick a few good packs to grow out for parents and like fjallhoga says, plan what you want in the offspring and then you can select for it in your parents.
Another thing to consider is getting gear from a good breeder that doesn't charge up the ass for their work. I really like Spice Brothers, you can get Matanuska Thunder xA11 for 40$ I'm growing out some Vietnamese combo right ow and they look great, smell is heavenly, probably not what you're after for Medical grows but......

 

[Puff Puff Pass]

Here's my limited expereince. I have found a keeper in my 20 dollar pack of Ak 48 from Nirvana. (finished in 46 days). I also have Rez's Sour Deisel IBL which was 150. It is about 20 days from being finished but so far has been everything as advertised. I have no regrets on paying 150 for seeds. But I will still buy more seeds in the future. If this is a one time only seed purchase becuase of recent events then I would say get 10 packs of Nirvana and run. But if you use a quality breeder the genetics should be their and you wont be dissapointed.

I'm probably not helping much but I thought I'd throw that out their.

 

[Guest]

we'll from my breeding experience, and seed buying experiences heres what I know.

I'd go w/ your #3 method.

but u dont have to plant all the beans at once.

but it took me about 200 plants to select my current "TFB" pheno that i crossed from MTF clone that was 1 in about 2000 phenos from an old school Alaskan grower.

(it was a total runt, and barely missed getting chopped)...but FAR superior in the end to the rest.

the BH (sol) dad for the TFB offspring was picked BEST out of 30 seeds that mostly turned male.


there were good phenos in all the grows, but like I said it took about 200 seeds for me to find the (1).

 

[Sativa_Fan]

You guys that are saying that it's better to go with more (quantity) cheaper beans, you seemed to find out that he was for medical marijuana and advised that he go with the more expensive ones. Isn't that basically saying that it's better to go with the more expensive ones to begin with?

I am two-sided on this. I'm looking at it in terms of, do people really have the TIME to go through a hundred plants looking for the killer pheno from a pack of cheap beans? Don't get me wrong, I believe that Nirvana is good for the money. And yes, you can find keepers every so often. But IME, I had to go through too many males and herms to get what I wanted. Those seeds that I germed were basically a waste of time to get a seldom keeper. And knowing me, I'm very picky. I probably actually keep 10% of what I germed come harvest time. This includes going through males and herms (i'm a landrace fan), any that are straggling behind, chop em, any that aren't what I expect I'll dry/cure it and give it to friends. But I can spend a few more bucks, get me 2-3 keepers (or more) per pack and possibly one outstanding female that is a favorable pheno. And when I say a few more bucks, I'm talking about $100. I don't think I've ever spent more than that.

Those are my two sides to that. If you have time go through the trouble of germing seeds that might just turn out to be useless (unless you're looking for males), then several packs of cheaper beans is probably just as good as a pack or two of more expensive genetics.

Admittedly, next season I'll probablty end up doing a combination of both. Like I said, there are definitely good plants to be found inside packs of cheap beans. You just gotta look a little HARDER for em.

I went back and saw that AK-47 and 8 were mentioned. Happens to be that AK-47 is a fav of mine and I've grown out both Serious and Nirvana. Value for the money? Hmm...honestly like I said I had to go through more herms and males with 48 than 47 but in the end the results of both were about equal in every department. BUT, the 47 smelled better, tasted better and I found better females. I found pretty much no phenos with 48, but were fairly prevalent in 47 (as far as frequency of phenos is concerned). I never found the coveted cherry, but I had some otherwise normal looking 47 buds that smelled and tasted of lemon lime with cherry in there. Not the real cherry pheno, though

 

[Guest]

Do #3, but let someone else do the crossing, hence seedbay. Alot of f1s can be found from some really good parent stock for reasonable prices. Of course..you can also get nirvana, and other breeder genes there..but I'd rather buy a bunch of f1 hybrids from some landrace stock crossed with skunk 1 or something.

 

[Guest]

Your pulling down that kind of cash from medical dispensaries why don't you try all 3 methods? You'll be spending a tiny fraction of your profits for the potential to increase them by a very large amount. Is it worth spending even $1000 now for a potential raise of $10K a year?