FBsciences & the Complex Polymeric Polyhydroxy Acids Thread

[BigBozat]

I forget how I first stumbled across this, but somehow I did and read thru it & said 'hmmm' and then 'WTF?'

Just when I *start* getting my brain wrapped around humic & fulvic acids, alongs comes complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids (really? I'm supposed to dish that word salad?)... *sigh*

And then I learn that by reacting with a normally phytotoxic overdoses of CalMag AND/OR normally ineffective amounts of certain micronutes (iron, manganese, copper, zinc), this 'Lignitannic acid' - ha! my name! it's better than word salad - supposedly synergizes some yield- and plant health-enhancing effects?

Wha...?

So, I decided to post and see what better minds had to say:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2013106724A1?cl=en

Modulation of Plant Biology
WO 2013106724 A1

ABSTRACT
A method of effecting at least one biological process in a plant is disclosed. The method comprises contacting a part of a seed, a plant, or the locus thereof with a mixture comprising an agriculturally acceptable mixture of (i) complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids and (ii) a phytotoxic amount of one or more alkali (earth) salts and/or a synergistic amount of at least one source of an agriculturally acceptable transition metal ions.

CLAIMS(25)
1. A method of effecting at least one biological process in a plant, the method comprising providing an aqueous mixture of:
(i) an agriculturally effective amount of complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids (CPPA) having a predetermined amount of total organic carbon (TOC) and capable of positively effecting at least one biological process in a plant;
and (ii) one or more of :
(a) an amount of an agriculturally acceptable source of one or more transition metal cations in an non-agriculturally effective amount; and/or (b) a phytotoxic amount of at least one salt of an alkali (earth) metal cation;
wherein the aqueous mixture is suitable for contacting a plant, seed, or its locus.
2. The method of claim 1, wherein the complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids are derived from partially humified organic material.
3. The method of claim 2, wherein the complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids comprise at least two of:
a. a mixture of condensed hydrocarbons, lignins, and tannins and/or condensed tannins;
b. a oxygen-to-carbon ratio is greater than about 0.5 for dissolved organic matter (DOM) present in the aqueous mixture;
c. a total number of tannin compounds greater than about 200, the tannin compounds having a hydrogen to carbon ration of about 0.5 to about 1.4, and an aromaticity index of less than about 0.7 as measured by mass spectroscopy; or d. a mass distribution of about 55-60% lignin compounds, 27-35% tannin compounds, and about 8-15% condensed hydrocarbon as measured by mass spectroscopy.
4. The method of claim 3, wherein the complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids comprise a mixture of condensed hydrocarbons, lignins, and tannins and/or condensed tannins, characterized in that at least 10% of the total % of compounds of the composition are tannins and/or condensed tannins.
5. The method of claim 3, wherein the complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids comprise a mixture of condensed hydrocarbons, lignins, and tannins and/or condensed tannins, characterized in that at least 20% of the total % of compounds of the composition are tannins and/or condensed tannins.
6. The method of any one of the previous claims, wherein the positive biological effect is one or more of improved leaves per plant, total plant weight, root/shoot weights, leaf conductance, and yield.
7. The method of any one of claims 1-5, wherein the transition metal cations or the alkali (earth) metal salts are one or more of ferrous/ferric ions; manganese ions;
copper ions;
molybdenum ions; zinc ions, magnesium ions, calcium ions, potassium ions, and sodium ions, wherein transition metal cation is at least one of ferrous/ferric ions;
manganese ions;
copper ions; magnesium ions; and zinc ions.
8. The method of any one of claims 1-5, wherein the transition metal cation is at least one of ferrous/ferric ions; manganese ions; copper ions; magnesium ions; molybdenum ions, and zinc ions.
9. The method of claim 8, wherein the mixture positively effects at least one biological process of a plant selected from one or more of metal ion transport, metal transporters and processes that facilitate intracellular and/or intercellular transport, metal redox chemistry, metal chelation, extracellular acidification, metal assimilatory pathways, metal loading into the xylem, recovery of metal ions prior to leaf senescence, and intracellular distribution and/or storing of metal ions.
10. The method of any one of claims 1-5, wherein the weight/weight ratio of metal cation to total organic carbon (TOC) in the mixture is at between about 0.1 to about 0.5; or weight/weight ratio of alkali (earth) metal salt to TOC is between about 1.0 to about 10Ø
11. The method of any one of claims 1-5, further comprising contacting a part of a seed, a plant, or the locus thereof with the aqueous mixture.
12. The method of claim 11, wherein the mixture is applied at a rate such that the weight/weight ratio of metal salt to total organic carbon (TOC) in the mixture is at between about 0.15 to about 4.2.
13. The method of claim 11, wherein the mixture is applied at a rate such that the weight/weight ratio of alkali (earth) metal salt to TOC is between about 1.0 to about 10Ø
...

There is, of more... I stopped the cut & paste, lest eyes glaze over even more...


If I follow the registration rightly, this is FBsciences' Carbo Power
(which may also be licensed out under other names, IDK)
____________________________________
Who is FB [and what does he want with me]?

 

[Bubbleblower]

Two more:

converting cannabidiol to Delta 8 or Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol by mixing the diol with a catalyst and solvent and allowing the mixture to separate, removing the organic phase; and eluting the tetrahydrocannabinol from the organic phase

Cannabis Genomes and Uses Thereof

Edit:

examples of sequences whose copy number could be increased include sequences that encode one or more polypeptides involved in the biosynthesis of one or more cannabinoids, and/or one or more terpenes.
Specific examples include sequences that encode a Cannabidiol (CBD) synthase, a Cannabichromene (CBC) synthase or other Cannabinoids in place of THC synthase

 

[BigBozat]

So... does anyone have any experience with Carbon Boost?

 

[Only Ornamental]

Complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids and a patent claim?
Usually, the termed polyhydroxy acid is used. Those are in agricultural (amongst others) use for quite some time. There's no magic to them; though synthesised out of natural compounds, they aren't well biodegradable polymers with a high CEC and good water retention. Think of it as synthetic humic or fulvic acid or a more natural analogue of polyacrylate gels .
But the patent refers to something like poly(polyhydroxy acids) instead, the 'lignitannic acids' term you use would indicate so (I only read some of that shi*** claim). It's a fictional malapropism referring to lignin and tannic acid derivatives. As they are of natural origin, people usually refer to them as tannins, humus, peat, and/or compost... Obviously, the high CEC makes it possible to add amounts of cations to the growth medium which would be toxic in unbuffered in vitro cultures. That they aren't when using the claimed 'miracle product' is a phenomenon the whole soil biology/chemistry is built upon. That patent is reinventing the wheel (the stone one, not even a modern tire or whatever).
If Carbon Boost is really using this patent claim as 'active ingredient', then you're just buying good old compost. Seriously, no joke!

 

[BigBozat]

Complex polymeric polyhydroxy acids and a patent claim?
Usually, the termed polyhydroxy acid is used. Those are in agricultural (amongst others) use for quite some time. There's no magic to them; though synthesised out of natural compounds, they aren't well biodegradable polymers with a high CEC and good water retention. Think of it as synthetic humic or fulvic acid or a more natural analogue of polyacrylate gels .
But the patent refers to something like poly(polyhydroxy acids) instead, the 'lignitannic acids' term you use would indicate so (I only read some of that shi*** claim). It's a fictional malapropism referring to lignin and tannic acid derivatives. As they are of natural origin, people usually refer to them as tannins, humus, peat, and/or compost... Obviously, the high CEC makes it possible to add amounts of cations to the growth medium which would be toxic in unbuffered in vitro cultures. That they aren't when using the claimed 'miracle product' is a phenomenon the whole soil biology/chemistry is built upon. That patent is reinventing the wheel (the stone one, not even a modern tire or whatever).
If Carbon Boost is really using this patent claim as 'active ingredient', then you're just buying good old compost. Seriously, no joke!

OO, thanks!
[again, I should say... you've always brought some concise illumination whenever I've had a Q]

That's kinda what I was thinking as I was reading thru it, rubbing my eyes, and trying to figure out what it was that was ostensibly new & exploitable... seemed like they were trying to patent basic biological processes, and using fancy words to make it seem like something new... e.g., CPPA?.. Isn't that just good ol' fulvic/humic acids? How do you get a patent on that?

Anyway... thanks for cutting thru the fog, OO.
Though now I have to go look up polyacrylate, lmao (my org chemistry knowledge begins and ends with an ill-fated semester in HS that resulted in the instructor being institutionalized for a mental break-down)

Thus, another speculative thread ends...

:edit:
Oh, and yes, they are claiming it as the active ingredient in Carbon Power, e.g., see here ... all 0.18% of it...

I've never used it/bought... was just wondering whether anyone else had...

 

[Bubbleblower]

Thus, another speculative thread ends...

No, no, no, it just begins

Just because that one patent has more to do with corporate interest than science doesn't mean the others are not worthwhile.
The patent on converting CBD to THC is from Prof. Raphael Mechoulam.
As soon as he discovered that average THC levels in Nederwiet went up from 8.6% to 20.4% in just 4 years.

 

[BigBozat]

No, no, no, it just begins

Just because that one patent has more to do with corporate interest than science doesn't mean the others are not worthwhile.
The patent on converting CBD to THC is from Prof. Raphael Mechoulam.
As soon as he discovered that average THC levels in Nederwiet went up from 8.6% to 20.4% in just 4 years.

No offense, but...

Um, yes, those are interesting in their own right...

... and perhaps your point about the relative worthiness of patents is... significant???
(seems obvious/self-evident to me, but ok, whatever)

But that would be another thread... perhaps one started by a Globulespreader with a particular thrust or direction or Q?

What does either of those have to do with this thread, though, which was about patent claims involving humic/fulvic/similar organic acids (by a particular claimant)?


I am aware of [prolly just some of] Prof M's work... but I don't see how your cites above are relevant here/now?

Just cuz they are patent filings in the broad realm of ag, doesn't make them related/relevant to this particular thread... I'd be happy to go & lurk & see what you might want to explore on a thread of your own with a particular focus or question...

... But, general postings on the broad general topic of advanced cannabis botany, um, well... ain't that the whole reason for the existence of the MJ Growing > Cannabis Botany & Adv Grow Sci Forum in the 1st place? And to the extent you wanted to discuss THC extraction technologies, there's a separate Forum for that, no?

Just sayin'... and, seriously, no offense intended...

 

[vostok]

please stick to English ...as its difficult to us foreigners .....lol

 

[Only Ornamental]

Polyacrylates are also known as crystal gel or supersorbent and are in broad use in diaper, cat litter, cosmetics, water-retaining soil additive and so on.
If you want to add something 'pure', don't go with them, there are other, more natural alternatives. Just let me know if you're interested .

 

[BigBozat]

Polyacrylates are also known as crystal gel or supersorbent and are in broad use in diaper, cat litter, cosmetics, water-retaining soil additive and so on.
If you want to add something 'pure', don't go with them, there are other, more natural alternatives. Just let me know if you're interested .

Test Tube Aliens! Got it!
Well, now I have to go read up on hydrogel chemistry, but that helps, thanks!

So, what are the natural alternatives you were thinking of?
Always interested in exploring things for the never-ending search for the perfect soil...

 

[Bubbleblower]

that would be another thread

Why don't you make it then since you are interested in the perfect soil?

 

[BigBozat]

Why don't you make it then since you are interested in the perfect soil?

Why don't I make... it?.. what?.. another thread?
Well, besides the fact that:
- I was thinking about the Q of this particular thread and not necessarily the broader topic of 'the perfect soil' {isn't that a thread somewhere?}, and
- I didn't post the non-humic acid-related cites (you did, remember?), and
- therefore, I don't have any particular familiarity with them, and
- so, I don't have a particular Q or line of thinking I want to pursue with regard to those cites or their specific - seemingly different (to me, anyways) - subject matter at this point in time...
... there's always my mercurial nature & general lack of desire to plan ahead, so perhaps that's why? Maybe I will, if/when I ever figure out whatever it is I want & need to figure out about it...

WTF?


Why don't you?


In the interest of communicating to be understood, make your point (preferably on topic here, or on another thread if off topic) - please...