Ethanol v butane

[KRK420]

I use trim and popcorn for making butter or rso.

I m going to have more than usual from now on and have been looking at different ways of processing it.

The 2 options I’m deciding between are a rotovap/chiller/vacuum or a small closed loop butane system/vac chamber/heat mat.

I have a few of concerns with each.

The small closed loop systems seem to use more dry ice than retaining the butane is worth. Butane is easier to buy and cheaper than dry ice so the small systems seem pointless.
I’m sure I’m missing something as they seem popular, but open blasting seems to make more sense on a small scale?

Using a rotovap with ethanol makes sense to me. But I worry the end product won’t be as good as BHO.

How does ethanol shatter compare to BHO?

Is it possible to completely purge butane from the final product with a lab heat mat and vac chamber?

Ive watched a lot of YouTube videos. Unfortunately most of their creators don’t inspire confidence.

Advice appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[troutman]

Butane is more dangerous so be careful if you go that route.

I made honey oil using dry n-Hexane as the extraction solvent. Upon gentle heating I reclaimed it using
a glass still for another day. To purge any remnant primary solvent from my honey oil I added fairly
pure 98% dry ethanol into it while dissolving it and then gently heated until it was also gone. Ethanol
has a higher boiling point so by the time the ethanol is all gone the n-Hexane is most likely a trace at
best. I also winterized it in ethanol and filter it thru a Whatman #1 filter before before doing a 2nd purge
to get rid of waxes,etc.

I bet using some ethanol for a purge after a butane extraction would get rid of it as well.

Note: I used molecular sieves 3A to dry my solvents. Dry solvents pick up less chlorophyll.

Here's a pick of my Afropips Malawi Gold Honey Oil.

 

[KRK420]

I would only blast outside.

I will look into ethanol purge. It’s a great idea and will alleviate my biggest concern with butane.

I have got a lot to learn, but I’ve got the time and I tend to pick things up quickly.

Rotovap and ethanol is my preferred route for safety and long term cost, even if the initial layout is high. My worry is the taste and quality of the final product compared to BHO. I’ve heard people say all ethanol extract shatter tastes the same. I was wondering if the lower boiling temp in a rotovap would preserve terpenes over other ethanol extraction methods?

Presses are now reasonably priced but I imagine a awful yield from trim and popcorn.

 

[troutman]

I think one problem about butane used alone is it evaporates a little too fast and the honey oil solidifies with
some butane microbubbles inside of it. Which is why I came up with the idea redissolving my goodies with a
little ethanol and slow heating after stirring to purge any remnant butane or n-Hexane in my case.

 

[troutman]

I have also distilled cannabis terpenes using steam distilling and it works great. I tried using orange peels
the first time to capture limonene and the stuff floats on water making separation easy with an essential
oil-water separator. Make sure when you distill it ends up in an oil-water separator for easier collection
vs a flask like some people do.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Both work. Your desired end product determines what the best process is. What product do you want to end up with?

BHO extraction presents the greater number of hazards and requires the most equipment to do it safely.

There is a difference between Ethanol and BHO extraction in that Ethanol is polar, while Propane, Butane, Pentane, Hexane, and Heptane are all non-polar, so while they both dissolve the coveted terpenes and cannabinoids, they both also extract other less desirable compounds. Ethanol will extract polar constituents like water and water-soluble elements, as well as chlorophyll, while the non-polar solvents will extract plant waxes and deprotonated chlorophyll in the form of pheophytin.

All To get premium quality with either requires subzero extraction. Typically below -50C. I've used both dry ice and LN2 for that purpose, but you can buy chillers that go that low.

Because both Propane and Butane have lower boiling points, it is easier to retain the mono and sesqui-terpenes when purging. Since those terpenes are all alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, ketones, et al, they have higher vapor pressures and evaporate away far below their boiling points. If you taste your recovered ethanol, you will discover that it has more terpenes in it than were left in the concentrate.

On the other hand, unless you use subzero extraction BHO, you pick up plant waxes and if you use Ethanol winterization to remove them, you lose them anyway, sooooo........................ .

Butane and Propane both have mystery oil in them and should be pre-distilled to remove it before using it for extraction, which requires a closed loop system. We even removed some mystery oil from Instrument Grade Butane and Propane.

190 Proof ethanol doesn't present those same hazards and QWET is the process that I recommend for low budget extractions. You have to pay closer attention to detail than with non-polar extractions, but it still makes a nice product that can be used orally, topically, vaping, or in suppositories.

Here is how I do QWET inexpensively:

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php/...n/9-4-7-1-qwet

 

[KRK420]

I can’t “like” posts at the moment.

I will look at steam distillation and grey wolfs site is excellent.

I just missed a £10k rotovap, chiller vacuum set up on eBay. I don’t think it sold. I think he delisted. It was on for £5k which I wouldn’t have paid, but was hoping to offer around £3k if it sat for a while.

I think I’ll buy from China. Only U.K. option I have is out of stock for 3 months.

 

[mexweed]

run all of it to qwet, run the material a second time, you have the first run which should be top quality shatter, and the second run to make butter with, combine some of both runs and let sit out for a week and you have rso as the qwet will decarb naturally in open air to become active in the stomach

 

[goingrey]

What are the disadvantages of using isopropanol?

I like how ethanol is "safe" - some people even drink the stuff. Unfortunately I can only get up to 60% ABV so would have to distill it. Which would double my crimes as per local laws. And I don't like that..

 

[KRK420]

I think iso is poisonous if ingested.

 

[goingrey]

I think iso is poisonous if ingested.

This is true but it seems to be poisonous in exactly the same way as ethanol, just at a lower dose.

So when we are talking about residuals after evaporation possibly the toxicity would be about the same?

Isopropanol poisoning: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24815348/

Isopropanol SDS: https://www.fishersci.com/store/msd...endorId=VN00033901&countryCode=US&language=en
Ethanol SDS: https://www.fishersci.com/store/msd...endorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en

 

[Gray Wolf]

What are the disadvantages of using isopropanol?

I like how ethanol is "safe" - some people even drink the stuff. Unfortunately I can only get up to 60% ABV so would have to distill it. Which would double my crimes as per local laws. And I don't like that..

99% Iso MSDS shows 400 ppm TWA as the maximum allowable Iso in breathing air.

https://www.conney.com/WEBSPHERE/MSDS/84299.PDF

The human sensory threshold for detecting Iso is about 39 ppm with irritation starting at about 512 ppm:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12373316/

If you can't smell or taste it, it is lower than 400 ppm.

Iso is insalubrious to drink, but as pernicious as sometimes presented. Here is what the FDA has to say about Class III solvents.

Solvents in Class 3 (Table 3) may be regarded as less toxic and of lower risk to human health. Class 3 includes no solvent known as a human health hazard at levels normally accepted in pharmaceuticals. However, there are no long-term toxicity or carcinogenicity studies for many of the solvents in Class 3. Available data indicate that they are less toxic in acute or short-term studies and negative in genotoxicity studies. It is considered that amounts of these residual solvents of 50 mg per day or less (corresponding to 5,000 ppm or 0.5 percent under Option 1) would be acceptable without justification. Higher amounts may also be acceptable provided they are realistic in relation to manufacturing capability and good manufacturing practice (GMP). Table 3. – Class 3 Solvents Which Should Be Limited by GMP or Other Quality-Base

Isopropyl boils at 82.2C/180F at sea level (760mm), so if you decarboxylate the essential oil at 121C/250F, the mixture can't reach those temperatures until all lower boiling point solvents are boiled away.

You can also add water to form higher boiling point azeotropes with the residual alcohol that still boil off below 121C/250F, so that residuals are in the parts per billionth levels.

Here is how we extract ISO using QWISO techniques:

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php/diy-cannamed-production/9-4-extraction/9-4-8-isopropyl-extraction/9-4-8-1-qwiso

Here is an innovative article on making cleaner RSO with ISO:

Cannabis Home Sciences

 

[Gray Wolf]

run all of it to qwet, run the material a second time, you have the first run which should be top quality shatter, and the second run to make butter with, combine some of both runs and let sit out for a week and you have rso as the qwet will decarb naturally in open air to become active in the stomach

Here is an article about decarboxylating cannabis dissolved in ethanol insitu. It should also work with ISO, though the time may be different:

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php...1-2-decarboxylating-ethanol-tinctures-in-situ

 

[dirty-joe]

To purge any remnant primary solvent from my honey oil I added fairly
pure 98% dry ethanol into it while dissolving it and then gently heated until it was also gone.

troutman, could you say where, how you get 98% ehanol in canada ? can I also add non-denatured.
Fine looking product.

 

[troutman]

troutman, could you say where, how you get 98% ehanol in canada ? can I also add non-denatured.
Fine looking product.

I used 40% Smirnoff vodka distilled with a laboratory glass still to get the 95%.
Then I stored it for a few weeks with some molecular 3A sieves to absorb some
of the water and carefully redistilled to finally get 98%.

BTW: Don't drink stuff like 98% undiluted cause it burns and is not medically approved.

95%

98%

 

[dirty-joe]

I used 40% Smirnoff vodka distilled with a laboratory glass still to get the 95%.
Then I stored it for a few weeks with some molecular 3A sieves to absorb some
of the water and carefully redistilled to finally get 98%.

BTW: Don't drink stuff like 98% undiluted cause it burns and is not medically approved.

I figured as much. I mean I haven't searched exhaustively, but it doesn't seem to be as easy to get here as south of the border.

 

[Gray Wolf]

troutman, could you say where, how you get 98% ehanol in canada ? can I also add non-denatured.
Fine looking product.

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php/10-the-alchemist-resource/10-19-190-proof-ethanol-from-scratch

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php/...-proof-ethanol

 

[Legalcdn]

troutman, could you say where, how you get 98% ehanol in canada ? can I also add non-denatured.
Fine looking product.

I just bought 95% everclear in AB at craft cellars. It will be sent to ontario. Works out to $54 for 750ml after tax/shipping.
spirtyus polish vodka at LCBO is $42 and is 76%.
LCBO in ontario rips people off with $108 for 1.14 litre of everclear 95%.

 

[mexweed]

unless you get good at recovering, at some point you will have paid more for ethanol than you would a press

 

[dirty-joe]

https://graywolfslair.com/index.php/10-the-alchemist-resource/10-19-190-proof-ethanol-from-scratch

Thanks Gray Wolf,
Nice website, well organized, good job.