Electricity sub-panel? Making a 120v into a 240v.

[l_d_d]

My friend has a 60 amp single phase subpanel running @ 120v on 6-2 wire.

He wants to change it to a 60 amp 240v panel.

Is all that you have to do change out the main breaker, from the main panel?? That will do it?? I assume, of course, the plugs will need to be changed also and possibly the breakers in the sub-panel..... but thats not too bad if the 6-2 stays in place.

Can he safely run close to 60 amps @ 240 volt on 6-2 wire?? Somewhere around a 60-80 feet run.

 

[MTF-Sandman]

Nope...you've gotta have 2 hot legs that are out of phase feeding it from the main panel. You could run a single run of 6 gauge wire from the main off the other hot leg to feed it, but you might as well just pull a new run of 6/3 if you're going to go through the trouble.

I wouldn't worry about it unless he's planning on running more than 4K of lighting...the only real advantages of 240v are the slightly lower amount of voltage drop, but that's a miniscule amount of power being lost; and the ability to run smaller gauge wire to deliver the same amount of available wattage.

 

[l_d_d]

Ya Im not sure why but he needs it on 240v. He said the wire cant be changed out.

He said something about turning the ground to neutral and the neutral to a hot, and not having a ground. Then can leave the same wire just need a 3 phase panel.

Any problems with that??

 

[MTF-Sandman]

Without all the details of the setup, I'd be scared to give advice on it honestly. It's true that alot of 240v devices don't use a ground though. Do you know if the subpanel is bonded to the main panel or if there is an isolated ground for the subpanel?

 

[stonewall]

Two hots and a ground ( thats two insulated conductors and a green or bare ground cunductor) will run all your 240 volt loads, but if you need any 120 volt supply, you will need a fourth wire (more specifically a third insulated conductor) for the common.

 

[l_d_d]

Without all the details o f the setup, I'd be scared to give advice on it honestly. It's true that alot of 240v devices don't use a ground though. Do you know if the subpanel is bonded to the main panel or if there is an isolated ground for the subpanel?

So some devices would need a ground? Theres not an 'isolated' ground (not sure whatcha mean) the only thing that connects the sub panel to the main panel is the 6-2 so whatever ground is in there is what it has...... but if switched that comes off, dunno if thats what you mean or not... What details?

Two hots and a ground ( thats two insulated conductors and a green or bare ground cunductor) will run all your 240 volt loads, but if you need any 120 volt supply, you will need a fourth wire (more specifically a third insulated conductor) for the common.

No neutral?? Or you mean two hots and a nuetral. It would be nice but he didnt plan on having any 120 coming into the sub.


IS THIS UNSAFE OR DANGEROUS??? .... not having the ground ..... could a court possibly rule it dangerous and unsafe wiring.... or is it common to do this?

And I know #6 can only hold 60 orso amps @ 120v....... that does stay the same with 240v right? The maximum amperage is the same regardless of volts?

Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it muchos.

 

[Guest]

Actually your amperage will be cut in half with twice the voltage so you wont have a problem there.I'm having a hard time understanding your panel though.All single phase panels are 120V/240V as far as I know,I've never seen a panel with only 1 hot leg.Another words you should already have 240V available to you in that panel,its just a matter of using 2 pole breakers.You dont need a neutral wire to run most 240V loads like stated before.When you say 6/2 wire are you referring to 2 hots and a ground in the panel?Or two hots and a neutral without a ground in the panel?

 

[stonewall]

No neutral?? Or you mean two hots and a nuetral. It would be nice but he didnt plan on having any 120 coming into the sub.

There is no Neutral/common in a 240 volt circuit. Just the two hot leads, and then the safety ground wire. If you have two insulated conductors and a safety ground conductor you can run 240 volts. Just be sure to label each hot leg, one black and one red. If your wires are black and white put some red tape on the white wire at each connection point to differentiate it has a hot leg and not a common leg.

be safe

 

[l_d_d]

Actually your amperage will be cut in half with twice the voltage so you wont have a problem there.I'm having a hard time understanding your panel though.All single phase panels are 120V/240V as far as I know,I've never seen a panel with only 1 hot leg.Another words you should already have 240V available to you in that panel,its just a matter of using 2 pole breakers.You dont need a neutral wire to run most 240V loads like stated before.When you say 6/2 wire are you referring to 2 hots and a ground in the panel?Or two hots and a neutral without a ground in the panel?

Thanks, that clears it up I think, I dont know my good buddy whos sposed to be an electrician told me it needed a 3 phase panel (he put this in btw) but now I asked again and he said he doesnt remember it he'll havta look at it, but Im sure your right about it working..

Ya I know the amperage would be cut in half, but hes gonna be using more, thus the change out. So I just need to make sure that #6 wire is rated for 60 amps regardless of the voltage.

6/2 wire…. Currently its hooked up 1 neutral, 1 hot, 1 ground, 120v……. But it will be switched to something else (I guess hot, hot, ground for the 220v... I had it wrong yikes) … along with the main breaker changed to a 2 pole and the plugs... thats all right?

if there was the 6/3 wire, could have that fourth Stonewall was talkin about.

There is no Neutral/common in a 240 volt circuit. Just the two hot leads, and then the safety ground wire. If you have two insulated conductors and a safety ground conductor you can run 240 volts. Just be sure to label each hot leg, one black and one red. If your wires are black and white put some red tape on the white wire at each connection point to differentiate it has a hot leg and not a common leg.

Ya I was wrong glad I doubled checked, hes sposed to be an electrician, we talked and he was like oh yea- thats right- my bad ,.... lol, scary, fuck,... my amigo who wires shit for me

Thats a good idea to label them, just so I know too and next time my friend isnt like fuck Ive been smokin too much of this shit your giving me and I cant remember what was done over there again.

Thanks to all yall for the help.

 

[Guest]

l d d. i'm a liscensed electrician and i can help you. #1 you're friend the sparky obviously hasn't been doing that very long cuz he don't know his ass from his elbow. any residential electrical service is 240/120v single phase. there is NO 3 phase in residential what so ever! so scratch that idea. if you are putting a SUBPANEL by the grow you will need an extra condutor for the neutral regardless if all you are running is 240v. stonewall was correct with the 6/3 call. you will need 2 hots 1 neutral and 1 ground. you cannot use a ground as a nuetral past the main breaker in your house. can cause problems, especially w/ ballasts. ballasts are what we call a linear load, which causes harmonics on a circuit. don't want to get all tech w/ you, but i would recommend the seperate neutral from ground wire. p.s. 6/3 romex or mc will work for you're app. even tho it says 3 wire it really has 4 conductors( the ground is uninsulated and not counted) that's why it's not 6/4. if this sounds confusing, just follow up and i'll help u!

 

[stonewall]

he does not need the extra neutral if all he is going to use is 240 v.

 

[l_d_d]

Ok well fuck, it changed again... so I cant do it without changing the wire is what you are saying? It was a motherfucking bitch, also neighbors might get nosy... thats what is trying to be avoided.

LOL, hes been doing it for at least 4 or 5 years, thats the fucked up thing!! This is my childhood friend from the neighborhood and we go waaay back, but fuck an a I know man. Im always a lil nervous with him.

He is a helper, not licensed and has done stuff for me alot but you wouldnt be totally off there. I dunno man I talked to him and he said I confused him..wtf? hehe.

Ya he works on commercial stuff only, only residential I believe they do is high end stuff,

So thanks man for the info... no way to up or split the amps with the existing wire?
Basically to do that I must change the main wire right? Thats all thats needed to accomplish, could give a shit about 240 and actually prefer 120.

This wire wont work for more than 60 amps @ 120 and 240 cannot be done?

edit: ok stonewall didnt see your post first, I guess yall can discuss that and lemme know since seems to be a disagreement.

 

[l_d_d]

he does not need the extra neutral if all he is going to use is 240 v.

This IS what my friend said but he may not know his ass from his elbow

 

[Guest]

do what you gotta. just don't try to get ANY 120v outta that subpanel. if you do that, there could be problems! 240v only!

 

[stonewall]

240v only!

cheers

 

[l_d_d]

So it will work right?.... just 240 only and no neutral.... and no ballast problems, with linear load?

Ya didnt plan on any 120, would be nice but like stated the wire I have wont work.

And thats the normal way to wire just 240v, not a ghetto makeshift wiring job that will work....or is it? More of a not the correct way but will work type of deal?

 

[stonewall]

its the correct way.


there is no place to connect the common to the ballast if it is operating on 240 volts.

 

[Guest]

yes. you can't use a ground as a neutral, but you need not worry at 240v. you will have a linear load at 240, but not a problem as long as you don't use 120v. alittle high when i read this at first...sorry if i fucked you up!

 

[Guest]

its the correct way.


there is no place to connect the common to the ballast if it is operating on 240 volts.

not entirely true. Some multi tap ballasts do have a common. and you will have to use it. if your v options are 120 208 240 277 or 480 you will have a common wire also. use common w/ appropriate v marked wire.

but if he has store bought setups he won't have to worry.

 

[UNREGISTRD]

Ya Im not sure why but he needs it on 240v. He said the wire cant be changed out.

He said something about turning the ground to neutral and the neutral to a hot, and not having a ground. Then can leave the same wire just need a 3 phase panel.

Any problems with that??

The answer lies in the the 3rd POST the whole time!!

u have 6/2 right now meaning u have
1hot
1neutral
1ground..

To make it 240 all u need to do is turn the ground to the nuetral and the neutral to a hot! 240v dOES NOT HAVE A GROUND!
Just make sure u label the wires after u do this so when an electrician comes along later down the road he nows that the wire is a HOT not a nuetral even though its white!