electrical panel has no main breaker

[deepforest]

hi

i have some experience with electrical, ive added and wired up numerous new circuits but now im helping someone out and they live in an older apartment style building. they pay their own power bill and have their own account with the power company and they have the main panel in their apartment. when i look at it, there is no main breaker to de-energize the panel. there are a few 15 amp breakers and then the 40 amp breaker for the range. whats weird is that the 40 amp double pole breaker is actually split and each single pole making up the double pole is attached to a 15 amp single pole on either side. its really confusing... is it likely the main shutoff is somewhere outside of the apartment wherever the meter may be? or does the power company need to pull the meter for us to add a new circuit?

ive heard about old "split bus panels" that dont have a main breaker but that can be deenergized if you turn off a few breakers but im not sure.


thx

 

[slappyjack]

My main breaker is outside next to the meter, behind it's own little door. I live in a condo complex.

 

[Texasdrodown]

You don't need to flip the main to add a breaker your likely just going to add what a 30A or 15A breaker and probably use romex to run to your grow room when you take the cover off the panel you should see the bare wire will be plugged into a buss bar along the bottom normally and then you black wire will on another buss to the side depending on which side of the panel you are trying to add a breaker to and the white should attach to the breaker if you do it in that order the bare first then the black to the side buss then attach the white wire to the breaker and plug in the breaker or however it attaches Theres lots of styles but you'll be safe remeber boys and girls never play with electricity

 

[PharmaCan]

You don't need to flip the main to add a breaker your likely just going to add what a 30A or 15A breaker and probably use romex to run to your grow room when you take the cover off the panel you should see the bare wire will be plugged into a buss bar along the bottom normally and then you black wire will on another buss to the side depending on which side of the panel you are trying to add a breaker to and the white should attach to the breaker if you do it in that order the bare first then the black to the side buss then attach the white wire to the breaker and plug in the breaker or however it attaches Theres lots of styles but you'll be safe remeber boys and girls never play with electricity

You should completely ignore everything written above. It's 100% bullshit!

PC

 

[sirbudsalot]

You should completely ignore everything written above. It's 100% bullshit!

PC

Working on an energized panel is a good way to get electrocuted.

Worst case - just don't pay the bill for 90 days

I think the code requires a disconnect for any service. It's there somewhere...

 

[madpenguin]

Yea, there should be an outside disconnect somewhere.

If not, and the incoming feeder cable comes straight from the meter, through the wall and directly into the panel, your not required to have a disconnect as long as there are 6 breakers or less. If you can't kill power to the entire dwelling with six throws of the hand, then you need a disconnect. If the incoming feeder cable travels for more than just a few feet inside a dwelling, then you need an outside disconnect.

What feeds the panel? Is it 2 hots and one neutral or is it 2 hots, a neutral and a ground?

And yes, don't listen to Texasdrodown.

 

[eddie.saw]

yeah the code definatly requires it. follow your service line out of the panel to your meter. there HAS to be a switch somewhere unless it is a 'split bus panel' then idk wtf to do..

 

[deepforest]

i will find it! god the panel is ancient, i dont know if i will be able to find a breaker to pop in! its called westinghouse, never seen it before

ill track it down, the apartment building is weird, kinda gives me the creeps, barely ever see anyone coming or going but i guess thats nice for this situation!

 

[madpenguin]

I wouldn't be surprised if you had no main disconnect. Atleast if it's in an older building. My feeder cables come straight out of the meter, come into the basement and then travel about 50 feet until it get's to a MLO panel. Wasn't even a backfed breaker to kill the panel, much less having 50 feet of unfused conductors in the house.

Sure.... code requires all that, but it doesn't mean your going to find it in some places. That's why when I retrofitted this quadplex I live in, I worked with all the feeder cables live so I could atleast back feed a DP main in all 4 panels...

Again, I also state that if you can kill all power to the dwelling with 6 throws of the hand, then you are not required to have a main disconnect. That's if your incoming feeder cable goes straight into the panel as soon as it enters the house....

 

[deepforest]

Again, I also state that if you can kill all power to the dwelling with 6 throws of the hand, then you are not required to have a main disconnect. That's if your incoming feeder cable goes straight into the panel as soon as it enters the house....

this is true, there are less than 6 breakers i believe. so if what you are saying is true and the place has no main breaker, what are my options? call the power company to pull the meter? theres a nice 40amp range outlet but the thing is, he wants to be able to use the stove to cook there. once they are in flowering it'd be easy to just plug and unplug the stove but during 24/0 vegging or even 18/6 thats barely any time to make any food. and a pain in the ass. theres no dryer outlet or anything else.

 

[Texasdrodown]

Everything I said is 100% true and anyone that know electricity woul know that yes electricity is dangerous I can't change that but he asked how to do it and I simply gave a answer to best of my ability given the info I was given I do all my own elctrical and have been doing so for years. Thank you evryone for all the kind words by the way!

 

[sparkjumper]

Its probably a main lug panel with the breaker being in a breaker enclosure between panel and meter.

 

[madpenguin]

this is true, there are less than 6 breakers i believe. so if what you are saying is true and the place has no main breaker, what are my options? call the power company to pull the meter?

Yep. Depending on where you live, and whether or not it's a house that is owned by the person who lives there, you'll need to pull a permit as well. Big pain in the ass. I would work on it live in this instance but then again I've had 4 years of schooling along with almost 10 years in the field. I had no disconnect in my apartment that had an old fuse box. I just individually unhooked each phase conductor and wrapped the shit out of it with electrical tape. Pulled the hot/unfused feeder out of my old fuse box and then replaced everything with a new Main Lug only panel. Backfed a 60A double pole breaker with the incoming feeder cable to provide a disconnect and that was that.

I'm not telling anyone to do this cause you would be pretty stupid if you did. All I'm saying is that I've been in the field long enough to know how to safely work with live and unfused power cables. Even then, one little slip up and I could really hurt myself, or worse, kill myself. Even pulling a meter face yourself can pose a hazard. I've seen one blow up in someones face before as he was pulling it.

theres a nice 40amp range outlet but the thing is, he wants to be able to use the stove to cook there. once they are in flowering it'd be easy to just plug and unplug the stove but during 24/0 vegging or even 18/6 thats barely any time to make any food. and a pain in the ass. theres no dryer outlet or anything else.

Sounds like you need to old work a new circuit. If there really is no outside disconnect, the only way your going to be able to add a new circuit is to work on the panel live. On the sticky in this subforum, PC, I and others have stated what you need to be aware of when working in a live panel. It basically boils down to knowing what is grounded and what is hot. And always being aware of the proximity of grounded and live parts and NOT have them come in contact.

In contact, I mean.... An incoming hot feeder conductor accidentally touches your neutral bar before you have a chance to tape it up. Or... You accidentally touching a hot part of the panel with one hand and your other hand is grounded (ie-touching the frame of the panel, copper water pipe, neutral buss bar, gas line... whatever. Whether hot and ground come together in direct contact or some other thing bridges the gap that is conductive (like you), your not going to have fun.

 

[PharmaCan]

In contact, I mean.... An incoming hot feeder conductor accidentally touches your neutral bar before you have a chance to tape it up. Or... You accidentally touching a hot part of the panel with one hand and your other hand is grounded (ie-touching the frame of the panel, copper water pipe, neutral buss bar, gas line... whatever. Whether hot and ground come together in direct contact or some other thing bridges the gap that is conductive (like you), your not going to have fun.

And don't forget to remove any jewelry before working on a live system. Get a short through a ring and you can say bye-bye finger real quick.

PC