DWC or RDWC or ebb n grow

[gus738]

hi everyone i been growing in soil for some time now and i want to also experiment with dwc or rdwc or ebb n grow (c.a.p.) system.

i was wondering if dwc is just a matter of putting air /water pump inside say the 2 gal buckets and a air stone.

also why do some people have a hose for dwc?

as i said earlier i have a ebb and grow (or flow?) 12 bucket 2 gal system made by cap system.

i was thinking of using this system but instead of using flood and drain , i feel like dwc with air stone would be easier for me.

i would appreciate feedback thanks in advance

 

[gregor_mendel]

Use the ebb and flow buckets as is.
If you convert it, I would drip, not any kind of water culture.
If you really need the high growth rate you are expecting from dwc, you could run a 24/7 drip with rocks or coarse perlite, and probably will need to chill your water.

Using as ebb & flow will be the easiest.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Ebb & Gro for sure.

DWC is just an air-stone in a bucket - no water pump required unless building a recirculating setup (RDWC). Warm water temps are enemy #1 - DWC or RDWC without an expensive chiller can be a grower's nightmare.

Ebb&Gro tolerant to higher water temps without crop failure. Every drain cycle you'll be pulling tons of oxygen into the root zone. No air pumps needed (noise)

Bottom line is the Ebb&Gro can give you the results your looking for in hydro without all of the complexity, temp issues, root rot issues, etc that you might encounter in DWC.

Keep an eye on the floats (dont let em get gunked up), keep an eye on the pumps (if they fail you lose) and everything is smooth sailing in the ebb and grow. I'd recommend running simple clean base nute along with a sterilizing product like dutch master zone.

my 2c.. I've ran em all. DWC is funner because you get to see the root porn.. Ebb & Flow is more reliable/consistent.

 

[gus738]

flood and drain is that same as ebb and flow? also while ebb and flow may be easier in terms of maintenance? or just requires more checking like temp of water?

and is DWC that much more of a faster growth rate then
flood and drain? or somewhat noticeable ?

and why drip ?

Use the ebb and flow buckets as is.
If you convert it, I would drip, not any kind of water culture.If you really need the high growth rate you are expecting from dwc,
you could run a 24/7 drip with rocks or coarse perlite, and probably will need to chill your water.
Using as ebb & flow will be the easiest.

Ebb & Gro for sure.
DWC is just an air-stone in a bucket - no water pump required unless building a recirculating setup (RDWC). Warm water temps are enemy #1 - DWC or RDWC without an expensive chiller can be a grower's nightmare.
Ebb&Gro tolerant to higher water temps without crop failure. Every drain cycle you'll be pulling tons of oxygen into the root zone. No air pumps needed (noise) Bottom line is the Ebb&Gro can give you the results your looking for in hydro without all of the complexity, temp issues, root rot issues, etc that you might encounter in DWC.
Keep an eye on the floats (dont let em get gunked up), keep an eye on the pumps (if they fail you lose) and everything is smooth sailing in the ebb and grow. I'd recommend running simple clean base nute along with a sterilizing product like dutch master zone.
my 2c.. I've ran em all. DWC is funner because you get to see the root porn.. Ebb & Flow is more reliable/consistent.

flowerfarmer if its just an air stone how is that air stone power if its not from a water pump? air pump? what difference ? just noise or one can be put inside water?

also i am not concerned about noise from the pumps .

Many thanks for the replies guys, im sorry for the questions

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Yes

Ebb & Flow is just another phrase for Flood & Drain. Your simply just flooding a medium (typically hydroton) on a set schedule. (typically 15min flood every 4 hrs).

Ebb & Flow means you do not have to be as concerned with water temp where as in DWC anything too much over 68F could lead to root slime and poor growth. Typically in a ebb & flow system you just need a small water pump (ebb&gro uses 2 small pumps) where as in a DWC you'll need air pumps, chiller to control temps, and typically a larger water pump if your doing RDWC.

I personally don't think you'll notice performance differences between the 2. Both will produce fast hydro results.

Yes - DWC is just a container with water level kept level at the bottom of your net pot. Air stone goes in bottom of container and is fed with air from a air pump. The more the merrier.. This can get loud because you've got a lot of bubbles bursting, air pumps humming, etc. Roots grow directly in aerated water.

Both are great ways to grow. DWC can just be a bit more problematic. I started growing in DWC...its fun, but water temps over 68F cause problems. These problems are unlikely in ebb and flow.

Maintenance is the same.. add water.. keep pH between 5.2-6.2.. work nutrient ppms up to a target ppm level of around 1300-1400 (EC 1.8-2.0) on a meter with a .7 conversion factor.

If running DWC without a chiller maintenance might also be tossing in frozen water bottles around the clock to try to keep the temps down.



PS - Downside to the ebb&gro though is that it requires a lot of hydroton (that needs rinsed before use). This can be a pain in the back (literally). DWC is nice because its typically just a smaller cup of rocks.. versus an entire bucket of them.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

I wanted to say though..

My recommendation for the Ebb&Gro or any flood/drain setup is for your entire room.

If you just wanna play next to your soil garden I'd go ahead and give DWC a shot. Its fun and gets you knowledgeable in hydroponics. Do a single bucket.. all you'd need is:

5 gallon bucket, 6" Bucket Lid (net pot that snaps to top of your bucket), a large air-stone or two, and a two outlet fish-tank air pump. Throw some hydroton and a clone in there and your growing DWC... without a large commitment and risk of your whole garden. Wrap the bucket in foil tape or that silver hot water tank bubble, to help insulate. Dont overfeed and you'll see explosive growth if you keep your water temp below 70F.

 

[gus738]

Ok things make more sense now really really appreciate it man.
and well my reason for the DWC was because i figured i would put in a blue air stone connect to the pump that i have (pump came with c.a.p ebb n grow system) and from their that would be it

other then of course checking the ph and water temp on a basis .

that and i figure if i need to move it around it would be easier then uninstalling hoses cleaning cables ( not to mention installing the tubing cutting for the first time and or as needed)
i also thought of using the 2 gal inner bucket and placing it inside a bigger bucket and air stone bam.

i do have a BIG back yard (over 7 sqft ) and a garage area over 10ft w x 8ft d x 10 height .

how would i lay the 12 gal 2 buckets for the ebb and grow system (cap) what spacing between each one 2ft? 1.5ft ? in 4 rows?

 

[Shafto]

If you keep water temp 70F or under and don't use anything in your res except the 17 nutrients needed by plants, and a water pump running 24/7 you will NEVER have a problem in RDWC.

Don't put snake oils in the res, don't use ammoniacal nitrogen (urea), use a nute with nitrate nitrogen. And don't use a sterilizer as a preventative either, EVER.

As soon as you sterilize, you're playing catch up. The good bacteria take a while to build up and the bad ones are boom and bust. If you sterilize all you do is give the bad ones a chance to boom, so you have to keep sterilizing to stay in the clear. This is a Monsanto like tactic, and is quite foolish. You don't need to add any good bacteria, make tea, or anything like that. All you need to do is provide the aquatic environment for the right stuff to have advantage over the wrong stuff, and that's as simple as keeping your res clean, no snake oil bullshit, temp bellow 70F, and recirculating with a water pump 24/7.

Air stones don't work very well, not near as well as a water pump, and the air pump pumps warm room air into the water. With a water pump you'll only ever need a chiller in the hot summer months. If your room is 75F day and 68F night you won't need a chiller. I only need one in the summer when my night temps don't drop. I then plug in my home made chiller that I built with a $20 used office water cooler, it's 1/15HP, and a digital aquarium water thermostat switch I bought on ebay for $25. It easily keeps 70 gallons of water cool.

The myth of RDWC being difficult is just that.. A myth. It's the easiest way I could ever imagine growing if you keep it simple. If your timer fails or your power is out on flood and drain you're screwed. RDWC can last days without power, and there are no timers to fail.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

^good post. Nice to hear the contrary.

I agree with you on the sterilizers. Back when I started growing I didn't use them at all. It was the water temps creeping around 73 when I used the zone as a crutch...

I think for many new gardeners in general though have a hard time keeping their rooms cool enough. DWC combined with even a slightly over optimal room temp and you've got pythium on your hands.

My most experience in DWC was in my beginnings.. small HID lights in cabinets/closets.. Always struggling to keep water temp down...likely because I was also struggling with keeping cab temp down.

I still dont understand how if your room is 75F and you have a water pump recirculating (creating more heat) that you wont run into temp issues without a chiller. Do your water temps not rise substantially when your lights kick on? Do you run large res outside of the room? Insulated buckets?

 

[gus738]

shaft awesome post! yeah i like your style, i dont like using additional stuff i would rather not using pesticides either , well in my current soil run i've used root 66 sugar daddy thrive b1 green. those only things i add. i try to be as clean organic as i can that includes avoiding using any pesticides fungicides etc no sprays . . .

shafto or anyone how would you lay the 12 gal ebb n grow system , in garage with 1 reflector magnum xxl 6 (1k horti)

or outdoor yes outdoor hydro ? i got over 7 thousand sqft

 

[Shafto]

Thanks FlowerFarmer,

I think if I put a thermometer on the floor where the containers are it would probably be a lot less than 75F day temps. That's 5 feet higher up where the canopy is. If I were to guess I'd say it was probably about 64-71F or something near the floor.

Water pumps use brushless motors that are usually 90-94% efficient at converting electricity into mechanical motion. You won't get much heat from an water pump if you design your system properly. More heat is generated by friction though, which can be minimized with proper design. Instead of using 1 single large pump building high pressure into a manifold that splits off with valves to control flow, I like to use smaller single pumps each with their own line to each plant. This causes much less friction and allows for a very efficient system, that with the two 13W water pumps I use for my 70 gallons, will only be putting 2-3W worth of heat into the water, even with friction factored in. You will also get more flow with less power input going with individual pumps.

Linear style air pumps are much less efficient. That's why the large ones look like big heat sinks. A rotating motor builds up momentum, a linear reciprocating air pump must stop and reverse it's momentum every stroke. The air also heats up as it's compressed, as well as the friction through the system, results in a lot more heat transferred into your water than with using a water pump for circulation.

There are other tricks as well, like pointing your intake at your res. That can help quite a bit. As temps start going up in spring I do this, and I get another month before I have to start using power to cool the water.

My grow buckets are insulated, and my main res isn't, but used to be. I didn't notice a difference, if anything it retains more heat. Won't bother with insulated again, except on top, from the lights, I like to use styrospan, makes a great lid.

This is my experience with my setup, I'm sure there are a lot of variables. For instance I grow big plants much higher up than my res, and my res doesn't really see any light because they're so far away from the lights, and covered by canopy.

 

[Shafto]

shaft awesome post! yeah i like your style, i dont like using additional stuff i would rather not using pesticides either , well in my current soil run i've used root 66 sugar daddy thrive b1 green. those only things i add. i try to be as clean organic as i can that includes avoiding using any pesticides fungicides etc no sprays . . .

shafto or anyone how would you lay the 12 gal ebb n grow system , in garage with 1 reflector magnum xxl 6 (1k horti)

or outdoor yes outdoor hydro ? i got over 7 thousand sqft

Hey gus, that's the exact stuff I started out with! The Technaflora nutes. They did work well for me, but they use a good amount of ammoniacal nitrogen (urea) which will cause PH fluctuation in water culture. You want to use all nitrate nitrogen if possible in water culture. I use Jack's hydroponics dry nutes. I bought a 25lb bag of calcium nitrate, and a 25lb bag of jacks hydroponic special 5-12-26 I think it is. Contains all 17 nutrients needed and nothing else. I mix 800 grams of the 5-12-26 into 3.5 litres of water (a little less than a gallon) in one of my old technaflora "boost" jugs and 536 grams of the calcium nitrate into the "bloom" jug. This gets you the 3/2 ratio you want when you mix them equal parts into the res. I now pay about $4 for the 5-12-26 jug and $2.70 for a cal-nit jug instead of $35 each for the technaflora nute jugs. I also use the same mix in veg and bloom. There's no need to change, that's another myth altogether though.

I wouldn't use sugardaddy or root66, just stick to the 17 plant nutrients, and nothing else. As you really get into things you can start trying some other things like sea kelp, amino acids, and certain carbs. These things can really screw up your res though if you're not careful, and at this point you're really only looking at gains of 1-3%. It's like adding CO2, don't worry about that stuff until you've mastered the basics.

 

[DeftoneSmoker]

I like rdwc

 

[kaka_]

They both have their good points. DWC... root rot can be an issue for some though.

Personally I like 3ft leech trays full of rocks with 4" cubes planted in them. Then open drip lines to feed. The leech trays allow me to move them for more space as needed.

Either way you really cant go wrong.

 

[gus738]

shaft thanks for the useful info , i am just not happy running soil its just too slow for everything so if i try fix a problem it takes longer to figure out or solve it.

also i feel since soil is dirty has good / bad bacteria etc i feel like this gets in my way,

all in all regardless if its flood and drain or dwc or rdwc they are better in seeing results and quicker then soil and at dwc it seems that dwc only major thing is to have water temps in check .

 

[serpent]

my preference is rdwc through and though. plants respond very well to it.

 

[Dankstang]

DIY RDWC for sure.
4 years never lost a crop including all through the learning curve
explosive growth...can see differences daily sometimes
used a chiller and h202, zone, bleach...
now i'm just using beach no chiller and no issues yet

 

[PetFlora]

I have done most hydro, including high pressure aero

By far the simplest, easiest with excellent yields is F & D

See my DIY Mini-Me F & D thread