Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[Backyard Farmer]

Thanks , Loc Dog...

On MeloCon's label what you guys are calling Alfalfa Nematodes are listed as Stem Nematodes ,

No one product will get you 100% control of anything.

It requires a multi pronged approach, however using an organism that parasitizes the eggs of the target pest as one prong , seems like a great idea. If they can't continue their life cycle, they eventually will die.

 

[Dark Lord]

 

[Loc Dog]

Just some things I have found -

Goodey, 1937 -- Journal of Helminthology 15: 137-144.

Lactophenol with acid fuchsin or cottonblue stain is used to demonstrate the presence of stem nematodes in root tissue. When plant material is thus treated in the hot staining solution, the contained nematodes stain a highly visable color while the surrounding plant tissue and soil particles remain unstained. For staining nematodes in situ in shoot structures, the stain "Scarlet R" was used.


Stem and bulb nematode Ditylenchus dipsaci was first described on teasel heads in Europe. It attacks stems of pea, beans, alfalfa etc. and bulbs such as onion (causing bloat disease), daffodil and narcissus. In the Sudan and the Syrian Arab Republic, the infested bean and onion fields exhibit patchy areas and larger populations occur in wet rather than in dry areas. Heavily attacked onion and narcissus bulbs show rings of decayed tissue when they are cut. When infested stem or bulb tissues are macerated in water, hundreds of nematodes in various stages of development are liberated. In a diseased bulb, stem or seed, heavily infested with D. dipsaci, the pre-adult juveniles aggregate in thousands and roll up to form what is known as nematode wool which enables them to survive desiccation and other unfavourable conditions.

 

[Wendull C.]

I have read the whole thread and value all opinions from todes to mineral deficiency... But when I experienced this it was in 3 different rooms a couple years back at different times all being the same strain of OG.
The mom was kept but never in the same place where the duds were. I have never had a dud again with clones from the same mom and her successive generations.
This is a bit confusing to me if it was todes which I don't doubt but why didn't it keep showing up in my new cuts?
Deficiency also puzzles me because all my plants are fed from the same reservoir with one crop being my best yield ever.
I mention this not to stir the pot but to help get to the bottom of this problem.
Nothing is worse than throwing whole or partial plants out because they have no resin and smell like pumpkin seeds.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

i know of another person who saw the same with a sour d, ddudded in 6 rooms including his everyone threw it out but him. he started growing again at some pouint and it was fine suddenly. defies everything else ive seen or heard.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

agreed
the proof will be in the pudding but you are absolutely correct on that point. in theory it should help substantially. unless it cant inside the plant.if its working on the todes in the soil only it wont help.

Thanks , Loc Dog...

On MeloCon's label what you guys are calling Alfalfa Nematodes are listed as Stem Nematodes ,

No one product will get you 100% control of anything.

It requires a multi pronged approach, however using an organism that parasitizes the eggs of the target pest as one prong , seems like a great idea. If they can't continue their life cycle, they eventually will die.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

i suspect the same.
the plants that dont dud are different instead of not infected. they never hit critical stage because of something different about them. i concede that could be something about how they use and are fed nutrients.

But if the plants are healthy with the proper amount of Ca in the tissue etc., could the even get to the point of infestation in the first place? when I hear the word infested I think like, mites spinning webs from one level of a plant to another and having mite superhighways....


My theory is that no, a properly healthy plant can't get infested..maybe infected...Plants are interesting , there are many things about them we have no idea about..we are just now starting to understand as growers what's what...

 

[milkyjoe]

Well one thing that struck me is the pectinase issue which can create calcium oxalate which is what kidney stones are made of. That makes sense considering what I've seen with some pics/reports where stems become brittle. Will do a bit more research to make sure I understand that correctly.

I have some vague memory of something like when your soil's C:N ratio is out of whack you're almost certain to get nematodes. Could be my brain just getting old.

Low carbon attracts nematodes...one of many things Tainio found. He use to cure it with humic acid

 

[RetroGrow]

Thanks , Loc Dog...

On MeloCon's label what you guys are calling Alfalfa Nematodes are listed as Stem Nematodes ,

No one product will get you 100% control of anything.

It requires a multi pronged approach, however using an organism that parasitizes the eggs of the target pest as one prong , seems like a great idea. If they can't continue their life cycle, they eventually will die.

Except that this particular strain of nematodes do not inhabit the root system for the most part. That doesn't mean there can't be small numbers of them in the soil/roots. It is well known that when the plant begins to die, some Alfalfa Stem Nematodes (Ditylenchus dipsaci) try to bail out from the plant by descending to the base and getting out through the roots, where they can go into a state of dormancy in the soil. Of course these products are going to list everything possible on the label, as they are only talking about "control" and "limiting". The problem is:
"The stem nematode, uniquely lives above the ground and does not infest roots. Initial symptoms arise in stems, branches and leaf petioles, which swell and become chlorotic. Stems subsequently become twisted and distorted with shortened internodes. Plants are stunted. D. dipsaci is found in North America, southern Africa, Australia, and temperate areas of Asia."
http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=727

Therefore, I maintain that these products were not made for this particular and unique form of nematode, will not "cure" infected plants, and will not prevent the nematodes from entering the plant through the STOMATA, which is their main mode of action. In other words, it's salesmanship, nothing more, and not relevant to this problem. It's a bacterium, mainly suited to the control of root nematodes in lawns and turf. Not gonna stop Alfalfa Stem Nematodes, and certainly not going to "cure'' dudded plants.
With nematodes, resistance is the key. Some strains are resistant, others aren't. Same holds true for alfalfa. Some strains are more resistant than others, but even the resistant strains sustain damage, just on a smaller scale. Now, if there's some common ground on which to base resistance in this particular circumstance, that would be helpful, but it won't be easy.

 

[CaliGabe]

It is well known that when the plant begins to die, some Alfalfa Stem Nematodes (Ditylenchus dipsaci) try to bail out from the plant by descending to the base and getting out through the roots, where they can go into a state of dormancy.

I did more reading and found they can be in a dormant state for like 3-5 years...yikes!

 

[RetroGrow]

I agree, this plant in particular has had some but not a TON of professional research done. I cant wait to see what cannabis can do in 10 more years.

Well, if they removed it from schedule one, where it should never have been, research would actually be permitted. Big pharma has fought that tooth and nail, because they want all medications to be sold by them exclusively.

 

[Loc Dog]

In my earlier post, when I said it was not 100% cure, I meant for soil, not saving infected plants. Applied to soil, the number of DD's should be much lower, but would expect some.

Maybe this is result of cloning. An infected plant is cut, cloned, and they do not even have to find plants to infect.

Except that this particular strain of nematodes do not inhabit the root system for the most part. That doesn't mean there can't be small numbers of them in the soil/roots. It is well known that when the plant begins to die, some Alfalfa Stem Nematodes (Ditylenchus dipsaci) try to bail out from the plant by descending to the base and getting out through the roots, where they can go into a state of dormancy in the soil. Of course these products are going to list everything possible on the label, as they are only talking about "control" and "limiting". The problem is:
"The stem nematode, uniquely lives above the ground and does not infest roots. Initial symptoms arise in stems, branches and leaf petioles, which swell and become chlorotic. Stems subsequently become twisted and distorted with shortened internodes. Plants are stunted. D. dipsaci is found in North America, southern Africa, Australia, and temperate areas of Asia."
http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=727

Therefore, I maintain that these products were not made for this particular and unique form of nematode, will not "cure" infected plants, and will not prevent the nematodes from entering the plant through the STOMATA, which is their main mode of action. In other words, it's salesmanship, nothing more, and not relevant to this problem. It's a bacterium, mainly suited to the control of root nematodes in lawns and turf. Not gonna stop Alfalfa Stem Nematodes, and certainly not going to "cure'' dudded plants.
With nematodes, resistance is the key. Some strains are resistant, others aren't. Same holds true for alfalfa. Some strains are more resistant than others, but even the resistant strains sustain damage, just on a smaller scale. Now, if there's some common ground on which to base resistance in this particular circumstance, that would be helpful, but it won't be easy.

 

[RetroGrow]

Do everyone a favor Retro... get on with your conversation about nematodes and keep my name out of your mouth please.
Talking shit about someone who has no interest in talking to you and hasn't replied in like 30 posts, makes you look like a bit of a troll.

Now, that's funny! The king of trolls calling the kettle black. Funny that you are still sending me private messages, even though you "have no interest in talking to you", and in spite of the fact I asked you several times to stop. You are so obsessed with trolling me that you have been dredging up posts from 5-6 years ago. All that time you wasted researching & trolling me could have gone into your thread "Grower Errors For Amateurs", or something useful.

 

[RetroGrow]

In my earlier post, when I said it was not 100% cure, I meant for soil, not saving infected plants. Applied to soil, the number of DD's should be much lower, but would expect some.

Maybe this is result of cloning. An infected plant is cut, cloned, and they do not even have to find plants to infect.

Again, the problem is that these products control (do not eliminate) root nematodes by colonizing the root zone, but DDs don't live in the root zone. They never even have to be anywhere near the roots to infect a plant. A cut can spread the DDs through the stomata, without ever going near the roots. Even soil based, root nematodes are never eliminated totally. The best they can do at present is to limit the damage caused by root nematodes. They've been around for a billion years for a reason: they not only survive, but have developed unique methods of survival. Frozen solid? No problem. They wake up when it warms. Completely dehydrated and immobile? No problem. They can wait for years for rain to "awaken" them. Seeds? Yes, they can infect seeds, and live for as long as 30 years in a single seed, or as long as the seed still contains some nutrition for them before it dies. So, I would say that this is one of the survivingest creatures ever to walk the earth. They are really hard to kill.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

all this begs the question though.why would this not be reversible.

 

[mojave green]

all it takes is a few "popular" Typhoid Mary cuts to spread the todes like wildfire. i fear a great path of destruction in cali.

 

[RetroGrow]

all this begs the question though.why would this not be reversible.

For the same reason that a plant that has been dudded by broad mites can't be reversible. The damage is done. You can't undo it.
You can try to prevent it. You can try to keep it from spreading, but once a dud, always a dud. The plant is ruined. It's never coming back to be a stud. In the case of BMs, which I'm familiar with, taste,smell, potency disappear really fast right at the end of flower, sometimes after smelling great for a month. I had a cherry pheno of AK47 that smelled incredible. Smell died in last two weeks, and herb was worthless.There's nothing you can do at that point.
I think the same is true here although I have only seen this dudding in pictures, and heard growers descriptions of what's happening to their plants. I don't think a dud can be brought back. That's what a dud is, regardless of cause. I do believe, however, that if you had a strain that you just couldn't lose for whatever reason, you may be able to take tissue samples, make new clones, and bring the strain back to the life it had before the dudding occurred. That's going to be the challenge. If I had a room full of these things, it would be slash & burn. I mean you literally have to burn even the dessicated DDs that are dormant in order to kill them, so fire is in order here. I wouldn't just throw them in the compost heap or trash pile.

 

[RetroGrow]

all it takes is a few "popular" Typhoid Mary cuts to spread the todes like wildfire. i fear a great path of destruction in cali.

It's a great way to "weed" out the inferior growers, reduce competition, keep prices stable...mmm.....just kidding, of course....maybe....

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

ive been looking around and cant find evidence of it being effective,i have access to a tissue culture lab. im going to try it of course but you would think if it worked it would be documented. of course there is the fact that beans alliums and onions arent typically propagated this way. but there is evidence that it is able to survive t.c. because i read (skimmed) some articles mentioning this as a way to preserve them. tissue culture harboring the todes for study. lol not exactly what im going for. but i think its worth trying to get them to retreat in a cut for a clean sample from the tip.

For the same reason that a plant that has been dudded by broad mites can't be reversible. The damage is done. You can't undo it.
You can try to prevent it. You can try to keep it from spreading, but once a dud, always a dud. The plant is ruined. It's never coming back to be a stud. In the case of BMs, which I'm familiar with, taste,smell, potency disappear really fast right at the end of flower, sometimes after smelling great for a month. I had a cherry pheno of AK47 that smelled incredible. Smell died in last two weeks, and herb was worthless.There's nothing you can do at that point.
I think the same is true here although I have only seen this dudding in pictures, and heard growers descriptions of what's happening to their plants. I don't think a dud can be brought back. That's what a dud is, regardless of cause. I do believe, however, that if you had a strain that you just couldn't lose for whatever reason, you may be able to take tissue samples, make new clones, and bring the strain back to the life it had before the dudding occurred. That's going to be the challenge. If I had a room full of these things, it would be slash & burn. I mean you literally have to burn even the dessicated DDs that are dormant in order to kill them, so fire is in order here. I wouldn't just throw them in the compost heap or trash pile.

 

[papaduc]

Now, that's funny! The king of trolls calling the kettle black. Funny that you are still sending me private messages, even though you "have no interest in talking to you", and in spite of the fact I asked you several times to stop.

Let's be honest with these people retro....

I sent you one message... once... two or three days ago... in response to what is about the 15th neg rep message you've left on MyIc page... where you called me the least knowledgeable grower on the website.

All I said in that message was: Less knowledgeable than this guy?



So.. again, just try and resist your urges, and let the thread continue. Good day