Draining tables against gravity?

[yamaha_1fan]

I am going to set up some tables, The reses will be out of the room and they will be pretty big, water storage tanks. Maybe 4 feet high. Not a big deal, use a big pump, pump out and fill the table.

There will be a small basin under the table that will catch the overflow drain. In there will be a pump with a float switch to turn the pump on and pump water back to the res.

In a normal E&F, when the timer shuts off, the water will drain backwards through the pump. But this cant happen in this situation because the res is higher than the table. I have not been able to figure out how to drain this.

What I am thinking of is trying to find some type of valve on a "T" that normally stays open, but when electric is applied, it closes. When the timer kicks on, the valve closes, and water pumps directly to the table. When the timer shuts off, the valve opens, and allows the water to drain into the bin, that will pump back to the rez.


Am I missing something simple?? I have thought about this since last night.


any idea where I can get a valve like this? This would be in reverse to how a sprinler valve works

 

[moses224]

why cant you just have two holes one fill one drain the drain goes into small res then pumps back out to large to recirculate next run? Maybe im missing the question but i ran a setup in a 20 x 10 area and wanted to maximi1ze space so i had res out of room and thats how i ran it. Good Luck my man

 

[yamaha_1fan]

was your drain raised like an overflow or was it at table level?

I run my current tables with an overflow that is 3-4" above the table, that keeps the table from overflowing. Then the fill drain sits level with the table and fills the table. When the pump shuts off, the table drains back through the pump

 

[moses224]

The fill was about one inch and drain was half inch. I just used straight pipe one maybe even half inch or less it was a few years back

WHAT I USED
This Botanicare Bulk Head Kit contains two Barbed Ebb & Flow Bulkhead Fittings (one ½” and one ¾”), two Extensions, and two Screens.

 

[PharmaCan]

Yamaha - look for electrically controlled "Ortega Valve". That's the closest thing I know of to what you are asking about. Also, if your res is higher that your table, you need a pump that stops water flow when it turns off. Otherwise, the res will just siphon into the table.

PC

 

[been]

http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=CAD200

 

[Bozo]

think this is what you need
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p...m=Feed&utm_campaign=Product&utm_term=953C-377
It would close when pump was on.I cant think of an easyer way than that off hand either

 

[kaljukajakas]

How about something like this: pump A is turned on, filling the tables (and recirculates a little water through pump B). Once filled the flip-flop relay will switch off pump A and turn the power on pump B, which has a float switch so it will keep pumping until the table is dry. So 3 pumps total (one for overflow).

 

[smurfin'herb]

I have a 4x8 just high enough off the ground so that the bulkhead fittings dont touch floor. I have a 50 gal rez to feed it using a rtw setup. I used to get siphoning, but all i did was put two 1/4" straight barbs into the main 3/4" feed line right before the arc it makes when goes over the side of the barrel. Now what happens is, a little nutient solution shoots out of those and oxygenates the rez when the pump is on (just an added benefit). When the pump turns of, air is sucked into the feed line from the barbs and prevents siphoning! Just make sure the barbs are pointed to or installed at at the very tippy top of your rez so feed doesnt spray out all over the place and get wasted and cause mess. And if u put them underneath the feed solution, the rez will be siphoned until that point is no longer under water. They need to be exposed to air at all times for it to work right!

 

[yamaha_1fan]

The fill was about one inch and drain was half inch. I just used straight pipe one maybe even half inch or less it was a few years back

So basically it drained as it filled? You just filled faster than it could rain I guess?

 

[N707]

Ive ran into a similar situation helping a friend setup his remote res.
In his case I rigged a water sensor (the alarm type) inline with a pump.
It was a bit contrived but worked very well.
Another simple fix is another pump dropped into the flood tray on a timer.
If your worried about pump failure run two pumps on two timers as a failsafe.
SImilar to Kaluka's, but minus the shraed plmbing. The simplest solution is the most reliable in plumbing.

How about something like this: pump A is turned on, filling the tables (and recirculates a little water through pump B). Once filled the flip-flop relay will switch off pump A and turn the power on pump B, which has a float switch so it will keep pumping until the table is dry. So 3 pumps total (one for overflow).

Hope you get it solved without too much headache.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Been, that item from Worms way still wont solve the issue. It will drain the overflow, but not the table


Pharmacan I did find the manual Ortega valve so I think I know what you are getting at

Bozo, I had already seen that valve, and that looks like what I am going to have to get. Just dont understand why it is so much money versus a sprinkler valve

Heres a diagram

If you look at the closeup, you will see where the valve would go. When the pump is on, the valve would turn on and close, forcing all the water to the table. When the pump shuts off and power is removed from the valve, it would open and allow the table to drain back into the bin, where it would go to the rez.

I am hoping to tie in 2 tables per bin, and I will have a bunch of tables, so I am looking for the most cost effective method as well.


I think the valve is going to be the answer. Or I could just add a third drain that is really small and just let the table drain slowly

 

[PharmaCan]

Bozo, I had already seen that valve, and that looks like what I am going to have to get. Just dont understand why it is so much money versus a sprinkler valve

Remember that thread by the guy that wanted to hook up a bunch of duplex 240v receptacles? He ended up paying around $13-$14 per receptacle. Except for the configuration of the holes, those receptacles were the same as any old $3 one. Same thing here. There are millions of sprinkler valves sold; relatively few of the ones Bozo mentioned. Maybe you should be looking at pool & spa supply places to see if there's something you can adapt that's more mass-produced.

I am hoping to tie in 2 tables per bin, and I will have a bunch of tables, so I am looking for the most cost effective method as well.

I think the valve is going to be the answer. Or I could just add a third drain that is really small and just let the table drain slowly

Every time you add another electrical component to your set-up you are compounding the potential problems. What about adapting some toilet parts to your situation. A flapper valve controlled by a float would probably do the trick. If you used one of those inlet valves with the float attached to the pipe, you could modify the pipe to act as your overflow and use the float to open the flapper. You'd also have your bulkhead fittings as part of the valve assemblies.

I dunno - it might work it might not. Right now it seems feasible in my head but you'd have to try it to see if it works. If you take the top off your toilet tank and watch it flush a couple times, you'll see what I mean.

PC

 

[yamaha_1fan]

so basically you are saying to set the table up like a toilet, except instead of pulling a handle, a float would open the flapper? I wonder if it will have enough strength to pull the flapper. Also I dont think the flapper woulld open much. I think as the float moved up slowly, it would just crack the flapper, then once the level dropped, the flapper would close since it wasnt open completely

I know the more things I add, the more potential for problems. I am thinking maybe a small third drain would be the best. If it takes too long to drain, it wouldnt be too hard to come back later and add the valve

 

[been]

Been, that item from Worms way still wont solve the issue. It will drain the overflow, but not the table

.....

Ah.... I see what you're getting at now.

This is what I'd do...... it'll take 2 pumps and 2 cycle timers (for simplicity/adjust for more tables we can). A submersible pump (in the res) pumps through an inline pump (outside, between the res and table). Time it out so that once the table is flooded and shuts off, the inline pump drains the water level back from the table to the res. Just have to get the timing and it's all downhill from there. ;-)

 

[been]

I spoze you could just tee shit up for multiple tables.

 

[Peanut Butter]

How about just drilling a few smaller holes in the drain tube slightly above the surface of the table. The low holes would drain anytime there is any level of water in the table, but make them small enough the pump will outflow the holes. Might take some trial and error adjusting the number and size of the holes so you table still fills and drains at an acceptable rate. Simple, cheap, effective, and nothing to f up timing wise and flood your room.

Or you could just build something similar to a controller bucket and place it at the same height of the table. SOunds like your already doing something similar with your drain res and pump, might as well just make the bucket so you have it....and it could be used for other stuff if you ever changed your system.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Well I tried the valve in th link and it doesnt work. Apparently it needs more pressure than a draining table can provide.

The inline pump would work, but that would require a 3rd pump.

One pump to pump to table.
One pump to pump from table to rez
One pump to pump overfow back to rez.

The other solution is to add another drain either with another bulkhead or like someone said, drilling small holes into the over flow tube and just fill the table faster than it drains. Problem with small drains are they are easy to clog and I prefer my tables to drain quickly. A small drain could have the plants sitting in water for 30-45 minutes.

I am also considering switching to drip

 

[purpledomgoddes]

Am I missing something simple?? from post 1...

is recirculation a strict need? why not just do garden run-to-waste?

w/ coco, or soilless medium, can simply water every 3-5 days, collect run-off and end the feeding. (disposing of run off in eco-friendly way).

turn on pump for 5-15 secs. (enough to create minimal drainage), when top of coco/medium becomes completely dry. will use much less water, and never over water plants.

there was article in old gardening mag that featured 2 gal bucket garden w/ no drainage holes. basement full of buckets - hand watered to weight. vegetables looked delicious at harvest. less water used too. tried w/ 5 gal tub. 8-12 oz. h20 per 3-5 days. no issues.

delete 2d pump, and just run-to-waste. just an option. hope this helps!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Well I tried the valve in th link and it doesnt work. Apparently it needs more pressure than a draining table can provide.

The inline pump would work, but that would require a 3rd pump.

One pump to pump to table.
One pump to pump from table to rez
One pump to pump overfow back to rez.

The other solution is to add another drain either with another bulkhead or like someone said, drilling small holes into the over flow tube and just fill the table faster than it drains. Problem with small drains are they are easy to clog and I prefer my tables to drain quickly. A small drain could have the plants sitting in water for 30-45 minutes.

I am also considering switching to drip

Is there any way to get the table off of the floor a bit?

Drain the table into another small res below it with a float switch and a pump. Small res fills, triggers pump which empties small res back into the main res.

It wouldn't have to be a very large res and could even be shallow. You'll want to set it up so the pump really only pumps in one long process. Repeated on-off stuttering would suck so it may take a wee bit of tinkering to find the timing or what not.