Damping Off Saga Continues

[Guest]

Hello fellow growers!

I'm having a really hard time with this.I have completed 3 grows,had various issues in all of them (genetic-pests-bud mould-heat) ,but never experienced anything like this.I have lost somewhere 25 already,in 3 attempts.

I've read here and there and seems like I have rhizoctonia,pythium or fusaria.Symptoms are that after 4-5 days from sprout,the seedlings stun and after a day or two wilt and die,the stem at soil level being very thin,looking almost flat .

I used Thiophanate methyl last time,but nothing improved(probably didn't apply properly, has anyone used it?)

Some info:

Biobizz light mix(last batch with a new bag)

Bottled water ph ~7.2 (not overwatering,quite the opposite)

temps around 29-31,humidity 45-55 (second attempt with 55-65 no difference)

lights 24/0 ,led 30w ,cfl 30 ,(2 different trays in different rooms!)

Last batch used new plastic cups,sterilized room...



I'm almost lost,read about camomille, trichoderma,beneficial bacteria,forgot to mention that in the first batch I used AN's root series (Voodoo Juice,Piranha and Tarantula) , but not in the next 2...

Writing this I had an epiphany that the only variable that hadn't changed is a spray bottle that I watered with ...If this is it I will be very happy(okay,you know what I mean),because that would solve the problem,threw the damned thing away already,although I highly doubt that this will end it.I have a good amount of bagseed waiting to be guinea pigs ,so I'm having a test go with them.

Do you think I should sterilize my seeds?

Any opinions-suggestions from anyone that has (or not!) battled this nasty situation are welcome and deeply appreciated. I'm starting to get a little paranoid over this, imagine that tomorrow I will sow some seeds at a friends' house,some in my soil,some in his,just to see what the hell is going on!

 

[Baron Greenback]

I sympathise with your predicament, I have also been the angel of death for seedlings recently. It's disheartening as well as expensive, but lately, I have been keeping them alive.
So, I presume the actual germination isn't the problem? If it is; soak them in water for 18 hours or so, place in moist cotton wool pad/kitchen roll, plant when tap root is out.
If not, I now use a Root Riot cube, but I now wait until there is a lot of root protruding, offshoots of the tap root everywhere. There seems to be a bit of an air pruning effect which seems to stimulate root growth. Until the first true leaves are well established, I use the water from my dehumidifier (essentially RO, ph 7, ec 0) and once well rooted, in they go to the coco in a small pot. Half strength nutrient until a node or 3, then when you thin k they can take it, full strength. I multiple feed so my ec is low, 1.2 when they are proper plants and my coco ph is 5.9.
Hope that might help a little, there are many wonderful growers here who will be able to help much more than me no doubt.
Good luck.

 

[Lester Beans]

Damping off happens when the soil is too wet.

Lack of light is another issue. If the light is too weak and far away the seedling will elongate and become weak, eventually tipping over and damping off.

Get your cfl two inches away from the seedling as soon as it sprouts. These will prevent it from elongating and dry the soil faster. A small fan blowing across the soil will help to streghten the stem and keep the soil from staying too wet as well.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Guest]

Hello,BG!

Angel of death is the correct term,you nailed it brother...

I had the best germ ratio last times,that's the gruesome irony!Not 1 missed!I simply had them in a cup of water in a drawer until the tap root was around 1 cm, the temps helped for sure!

I had bought root riot but it was probaply an old batch and they weren't moist,so I never used them .In addition,I don't think that my seedlings create a root that big to benefit from the air pruning you mention ,if I understood well to what you're referring to.I ' m getting them anyway for a test,thanx for the suggestion.

I also thought of using jiffy pellets ,but I wanted to get to the bottom of this ,meaning that I wanted to be able to do it the way I've always had,eliminating any problem in the process!Hell,I'm testing those too,just to check.

Thank you for your help my friend!

 

[Guest]

Damping off happens when the soil is too wet.

Lack of light is another issue. If the light is too weak and far away the seedling will elongate and become weak, eventually tipping over and damping off.

Get your cfl two inches away from the seedling as soon as it sprouts. These will prevent it from elongating and dry the soil faster. A small fan blowing across the soil will help to streghten the stem and keep the soil from staying too wet as well.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Hello Lester!

Good advice indeed,but I' ve already tried that, meaning :

I had the cfl light at 5 cm and the led at 20 cm .It is another thing than stretching,I know what you mean,different case,been through that,too!Comes with a stun at the first set of leaves,too.

I watered very very carefully and in low doses with a sprayer,mostly around the seedling,even avoiding to wet it .

I also have an oscillating fan in one room ,the others get fresh air around 4-6 hours a day when I take them for a bit of sunlight.Forgot also to mention that I'm gonna have them (not all!) on the balcony outdoors.

Thank you brother!

 

[caljim]

Have you used bottled water for every attempt? Are you on a well or municipal tap water?

Many cities tap water will have chlorine/chloramine to help keep water clean in the pipes. In general, people who use areo style cloners find it is easier with chlorinated tap water than those on well water.

Maybe try some chlorinated water on your next attempt. Here is a good thread on treating your water for aero cloning, but the same idea would apply to you. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=219683

Good luck, I hope it helps.

 

[Baron Greenback]

Try the Root Riot cubes again. Give them a good soaking, they'll be ok even if totally dry before.
Root Riot do a "first feed" nutrient, it might be worth looking into that.
What I meant with the roots was that the tap root starts by sticking out of the bottom of the cube, that then dies off at the tip, stimulating other root production and you then get roots sticking out of the sides of the cube. Every one I have let go to this stage has grown fine, some of the ones I planted with just the tap root protruding died.
I also use Canna's Rhizotonic as a very dilute foliar spray when they are in the cubes too, that seems to really help, explosive root production (sorry, forgot to say that last post, smashing my Volcano, bit lean ).

 

[Guest]

Have you used bottled water for every attempt? Are you on a well or municipal tap water?

Many cities tap water will have chlorine/chloramine to help keep water clean in the pipes. In general, people who use areo style cloners find it is easier with chlorinated tap water than those on well water.

Maybe try some chlorinated water on your next attempt. Here is a good thread on treating your water for aero cloning, but the same idea would apply to you. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=219683

Good luck, I hope it helps.

Thanx for the thread and the suggestion,caljim!

I've used both (tap and bottled) I think ...Last time was with bottled for germ and watering and the apply of the fungicide was with tap.

I will test with both.Will check the thread,too.

 

[Guest]

Root Riot do a "first feed" nutrient, it might be worth looking into that.

Are you referring to rootit first feed?I have that.
Gonna check them man,maybe letting them grow a big taproot before sowing them will help ,makes sense...

Thank you for your interest and help!

 

[thesloppy]

Personally, Botanicare Hydroguard solved all my damping off problems, and any other inoculant/tea/microbial product with sufficient amounts of Bacillus subtilis (e.g. that Voodoo Juice you used in your first grow) will likely work just as well. Good luck!

 

[Guest]

Personally, Botanicare Hydroguard solved all my damping off problems, and any other inoculant/tea/microbial product with sufficient amounts of Bacillus subtilis (e.g. that Voodoo Juice you used in your first grow) will likely work just as well. Good luck!

Hello thesloppy!

That's what I thought after searching,I think I've noted your advice on another thread too.I started changing variables and didn't use them again,I will now.

Thanx man!

 

[thesloppy]

Hello thesloppy!

That's what I thought after searching,I think I've noted your advice on another thread too.I started changing variables and didn't use them again,I will now.

Thanx man!

Heh. My advice probably looked familiar because I literally copied it straight from the other thread.

Like you, I had real problems with damping off for several seed runs, and tried changing all sorts of external variables, but eventually somebody gave me the same advice, and I just added some Hydroguard that I already had sitting around to my water and never had damping off issues again (you can even soak your seeds in it if you like)....I can still kill a seedling/clone better than anybody, but at least it's not because of wilting/rotting stems anymore.

 

[Guest]

Alas,Sloppy,I can't find any Hydroguard in my country (German protectorate formerly Known as Greece )

Do you think that I can replace it with voodoo juice?I had it for a year,so could be the reason that it didn't work out last time...I can get a new one tomorrow.

 

[Baron Greenback]

Try the Canna Rhizotonic as a foliar spray, I can't get either Hydroguard or SM90 here either.

 

[PoweredByLove]

i defeat damping off by introducing air at the first sign and i cease watering. low lights and high moisture coor air is what promotes damping off aka fusarium. when you spot it or think you spot it start taking action, sprits a little alcohol or h2o2 around the stem where it meets the dirt/medium squeeze the container to loosen the dirt packed around the stem, stop watering till the container is dried out only adding tiny drops to keep seedling alive.

it might still die, but if you jump on it quick it can make it.

 

[Andyo]

bleach

bleach

5% hypochlorite solution ,seed soak 10 mins dont rinse ,plant wet. no pre germination
spray soil surface or rockwool whatever.A

 

[Guest]

Only one left from last batch , that shows the classic signs,stunted at 3cm on the first true set,only one have stretched the first node out of all attempts ,before dying in the same way(stem flat at soil level).

I'm looking for something to prevent this from happening,it is irreversable in such young seedlings IME once spotted.

Try the Canna Rhizotonic as a foliar spray, I can't get either Hydroguard or SM90 here either.

Thanx BG!But I'm afraid that foliar feeding isn't possible,talking bout 1 cm first leaves still stuck with the cotyledons. Or maybe not?

i defeat damping off by introducing air at the first sign and i cease watering. low lights and high moisture coor air is what promotes damping off aka fusarium. when you spot it or think you spot it start taking action, sprits a little alcohol or h2o2 around the stem where it meets the dirt/medium squeeze the container to loosen the dirt packed around the stem, stop watering till the container is dried out only adding tiny drops to keep seedling alive.

it might still die, but if you jump on it quick it can make it.

Hello my friend!I'm doing what you're suggesting with the last survivor,only alcohol/H2O2 missing right now,if it struggles until tomorrow I'll hit it.Ty!

5% hypochlorite solution ,seed soak 10 mins dont rinse ,plant wet. no pre germination
spray soil surface or rockwool whatever.A

Hello Andyo!
Sodium hypochlorite I presume?Gonna try it with some on the next attempt.Thanx!



I'm really grateful for the interest being shown by all of you to help a fellow grower!
I've got a bunch of useful suggestions and all of them are getting a try!

 

[who dat is]

Actinovate as a root drench will take care of the root rot no problem. After that you have to get your temps and humidity dialed in. When you water make sure it is the right amount and that they do in fact need it. Allow plenty of time in between waterings for the medium to properly dry out.

 

[Guest]

Actinovate as a root drench will take care of the root rot no problem. After that you have to get your temps and humidity dialed in. When you water make sure it is the right amount and that they do in fact need it. Allow plenty of time in between waterings for the medium to properly dry out.

Hi who dat is!

I feel I'm doing the right thing regarding watering,I'm really careful and,as you and other friends suggested ,letting it tottaly dry,just keeping the seedling alive.After I see it sprout,I spray only the edges of the cup and not directly on it at all.It's just a little cup, so it dries quite fast.

I believe what you're saying about temps is also right,I was gonna try some of the upcoming in an air conditioned room just for them(okay,I'm gonna have my share of breeze but you get my point).

Also,I've seen a lot of people swear by Actinovate,but I would prefer something that I can acquire without ordering from abroad,searching for something similar.

Thanks , man!

 

[thesloppy]

Alas,Sloppy,I can't find any Hydroguard in my country (German protectorate formerly Known as Greece )

Do you think that I can replace it with voodoo juice?I had it for a year,so could be the reason that it didn't work out last time...I can get a new one tomorrow.

You're looking for any product with the Bacillus micro-organisms....put "bacillus" into Amazon or a hydro shop that you can order from and you'll probably get a bunch of results. Hydroguard uses a specific & unique strain of Bacillus, but any strain will likely help you with damping off. Actinovate uses a different micro-organism, and I've heard of people recommending products with Mycorrhizae as well, but I can only speak to Hydroguard personally.

These are living organisms/bacteria, so a year old bottle could have been worthless. That said, Voodoo Juice (or any other AN product) is probably going to be the most expensive option you come across, so that would be the last thing I'd personally buy, but it sounds like you may not have a lot of choice.

Take a look at this PDF from the Oregon Department of Agriculture, which tested a bunch of microbial products versus their claims. It might give you the names of several alternative products using Bacillus, and also shows you exactly what brands/products match up with their claims. Some didn't even show any microbes, let alone at the levels their packaging guaranteed (e.g. Advanced Nutrients) It doesn't matter how old the bottle is, if they're not putting anything in there in the first place:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0248/9641/files/micro_2015_BP.pdf