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Create and stabilize a new strain

BuddhaSeeds

Member
To create and stabilize a new strain, it’s necessary to know before the process to succeed. We're not talking about special techniques or involve much difficulty. We discuss the theory you need to understand in order to plan our route. Before you begin making crosses between strains to see the result, you have to know the plant which you work and the genetics behind it.

Cannabis is an allogamous plant, this is the way of the biology has to say that is a plant species with interbreeding. Over evolution, both plants and animals, has favored the offspring is produced by crossing two individuals. The explication is simple: it’s better to acquire genetic mixing those features that can improve the species in any sense, as resistance to pests, salinity, etc... Due to the immobility of plants, many have had to develop mechanisms to prevent inbreeding.

The most obvious mechanism is to separate individuals by sex (Dioecious plant). A fact that growers appreciate so that we can have females plants without seeds that devote all their energy to be more productive and resinous. But sometimes this may not be enough and we can find hermaphrodite plants. Nature also has been commissioned to solve these cases. In other species, most of them with flowers of both sexes in the same individual, it has succeeded in regulating the maturation of both the stamens and stigmas, in this way, pollen may disperse without auto pollinate because the female part isn’t ready to be fertilized yet. Other plants have come to rely specializations as perfect as they need an animal to achieve pollination, even rely on a single species, as some tropical plants that have modified their flowers so that only one species of hummingbird can access inside.

In Cannabis, and in most species with different sexes, these cases don’t happen, in them occur the more perfect phenomenon compatibility. Genetic. In these cases, both the pollen (male part) as the carpel (female part), have some genes that determine if the crossing is possible or not. What it happens is that when detecting that both have the same genes recognition genes assume from the same plant or genetically very close, and therefore is not allowed fertilization. If our goal is to create new strains must think about this factor, otherwise, new generations will lose viability and won’t produce seed.

This phenomenon will be crucial to achieving our goal. What we want to achieve is that the plant has the genes we want to express to achieve the desired phenotype and that the plants are stable so that your generations retain the characteristics of their progenitor. What we want to get is just the opposite that plants want and, for this reason, many problems are presented in stabilizing the new strains. To understand this wehave to explain something about genetics.

When Gregor Mendel began his studies to find out how the characters are transmitted from parents to children, it was with peas. Not coincidentally, he used plants because he realized that this could control the crosses he wanted and observe visible characters quickly and easily. Through his studies he discovered the principles of genetics. Broadly speaking, you must to know that all our DNA genes have two copies, one that comes from our father and one from our mother. The expression of the gene (the phenotype) depends on the interpretation of these two copies.

If the two copies are the same is said that the gene is in homozygous (AA or aa) and, therefore, the information is expressed without any problem (in the case of peas Mendel, whether they were yellow and if AA were aa were green). When both copies are different will be in heterozygous (Aa) and here we could differentiate each of the copies. The one that will express the dominant heterozygous (A) and will not be called recessive (a): Mendel's peas that were Aa were yellow. For our purposes we will interest genes are homozygous, when they are thus always passed to the progeny to the same copy and we get individuals with the same characteristics, or what is the same, homogeneous and stable varieties.

Let's see how will the offspring and their percentages in the paternal function involved in the crossing. If you cross a homozygous dominant individual (AA) with a homozygous recessive (aa), 100% of the offspring will be heterozygous (Aa) and parental phenotype will be like AA. If we cross two heterozygous individuals will otherwise: we will genetically 25% of individuals AA, another 25% will be aa and 50% will be Aa, as the only parameter that can distinguish is the phenotype, we see that 75% have the phenotype dominant and 25% recessive. There are more combinations and we have to keep in mind that you want to select can be caused by more than one gene, making it difficult to study and modify the proportions. When we know these concepts, we can see how the desired genes behave according to the manifest phenotypic ratios in the offspring and thus better focus our study.

Unfortunately, genetics isn’t so simple. Can have genes are expressed in heterozygous and homozygous form another (called codominance) is the case of some flowers that are red if copies are AA, white if are aa and pink if are Aa. Genes that depend on others to express themselves, such as height in humans: when more dominant copies of the involved genes are taken, the individual will be higher. Genes can be turned on / off at certain times from external causes and so on. Genetics is very complex, and all the factors that regulate or modify that only certain characters can select based on phenotype and whose ability to be easily transmitted.

We can’t know what DNA can have our plants so we will must to do the same to Mendel: observe the characters that interest us and we will select those plants until get that these genes are homozygous. Remember that if our phenotype is dominant, what we see at first glance may be the result of an individual homozygous or heterozygous (AA and Aa) and, depending on this factor will have a different offspring. If the ownership of our gene is recessive facilitate the selection because only manifest if is homozygous (aa).

If we want to select individuals with more than one property (with more than one gene involved) the thing is further complicated because the genetic combinations soar. This is the reason why many plants germinate need for individuals who possess the characteristics you want.

Finally, you must define both inbreeding depression and hybrid vigor. The first has to do with the harmful effects that have those individuals who have most of their genes in homozygous as a result of forced self-pollinations. If we do this repeatedly in our Cannabis plants we realize that the resulting individuals lose many of its features, such as reduced viability of their seeds, individuals more susceptible to disease or be generally weaker plants. Like we mentioned at the beginning of the article: plants have adapted to avoid self-pollination and this implies that genetically homozygous individuals are weaker (although it seems contradictory) and so natural selection will ensure that no transmit their characters to future generations. It is certainly one of the most important factors to keep in mind as we work to create new strains.

Hybrid vigor is the opposite, those plants that have most of their genes were heterozygous, are usually more vigorous than their parents. It is an important factor because if we cross two stable varieties will be a much more vigorous first generation but to try to fix and stabilize these individuals we will be virtually impossible because its features will be progressively losing gradually increase the homogeneity of their genes.

Broadly speaking, these are the main problems that we will face and, above all, that we can control, within limits, without delving into genetic analysis or laboratory conditions. Now we know more about our plants, how they behave their genetics and the problems we will go to appear, the question is: How can then act to generate pure lines of Cannabis? That task will leave for the next article.



Hope you find it interesting thread.
Greetings!
 

floralheart

Active member
Veteran
I agree with so much, nice article.

Grow those plants many cycles and get to know them. Smoke mixed herb to see what good crosses might come. Grow them LARGE, to see what their full genetic potential is.

If you can't tell me which is outdoor stock, which is indoor and which is 50/50 hybrid, find a bigger container and grow them larger and longer and find out.

You can't tell which plant produces a tree by growing 18" colas in a sea of green, you have to attempt to grow a tree or shrub.
 

BuddhaSeeds

Member
I agree with so much, nice article.

Grow those plants many cycles and get to know them. Smoke mixed herb to see what good crosses might come. Grow them LARGE, to see what their full genetic potential is.

If you can't tell me which is outdoor stock, which is indoor and which is 50/50 hybrid, find a bigger container and grow them larger and longer and find out.

You can't tell which plant produces a tree by growing 18" colas in a sea of green, you have to attempt to grow a tree or shrub.

Right floralheart.
Thank you very much for your comment, and we are delighted that you liked the topic, we will add the following article
soon.
:smokeit:
 

mendo420

Active member
Veteran
I agree with so much, nice article.

Grow those plants many cycles and get to know them. Smoke mixed herb to see what good crosses might come. Grow them LARGE, to see what their full genetic potential is.

If you can't tell me which is outdoor stock, which is indoor and which is 50/50 hybrid, find a bigger container and grow them larger and longer and find out.

You can't tell which plant produces a tree by growing 18" colas in a sea of green, you have to attempt to grow a tree or shrub.

Like this?


 
A

Alone

Very good info! Thank You for writing so much on this topic. Very Helpfull.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Kind of hard to understand.
"In Cannabis, and in most species with different sexes, these cases don’t happen, in them occur the more perfect phenomenon compatibility. Genetic. In these cases, both the pollen (male part) as the carpel (female part), have some genes that determine if the crossing is possible or not. What it happens is that when detecting that both have the same genes recognition genes assume from the same plant or genetically very close, and therefore is not allowed fertilization. If our goal is to create new strains must think about this factor, otherwise, new generations will lose viability and won’t produce seed."

"For our purposes we will interest genes are homozygous, when they are thus always passed to the progeny to the same copy and we get individuals with the same characteristics, or what is the same, homogeneous and stable varieties."

Cannabis has no barriers to self fertilization, yes the progeny will lose vigor and become inbred if selfed on a single plant level, but there is nothing to prevent this from happening. Other then man, but it is man that selfs a single plant, it seldom happens in nature.
Very few varieties are stabilized and true breeding, none are homozygous, zero. Think about it, almost all Cannabis seeds sold are hybrids, most are Indica X Sativa hybrids if you grow a male and a female of a single hybrid variety and pollinate them they do not produce the same as the parents, they segregate to 25% like the original mother 25% like the original dad and 50% like the hybrid parents. This is because the seeds are F2 or F3 or whatever.

What are pure lines of Cannabis?
-SamS


To create and stabilize a new strain, it’s necessary to know before the process to succeed. We're not talking about special techniques or involve much difficulty. We discuss the theory you need to understand in order to plan our route. Before you begin making crosses between strains to see the result, you have to know the plant which you work and the genetics behind it.

Cannabis is an allogamous plant, this is the way of the biology has to say that is a plant species with interbreeding. Over evolution, both plants and animals, has favored the offspring is produced by crossing two individuals. The explication is simple: it’s better to acquire genetic mixing those features that can improve the species in any sense, as resistance to pests, salinity, etc... Due to the immobility of plants, many have had to develop mechanisms to prevent inbreeding.

The most obvious mechanism is to separate individuals by sex (Dioecious plant). A fact that growers appreciate so that we can have females plants without seeds that devote all their energy to be more productive and resinous. But sometimes this may not be enough and we can find hermaphrodite plants. Nature also has been commissioned to solve these cases. In other species, most of them with flowers of both sexes in the same individual, it has succeeded in regulating the maturation of both the stamens and stigmas, in this way, pollen may disperse without auto pollinate because the female part isn’t ready to be fertilized yet. Other plants have come to rely specializations as perfect as they need an animal to achieve pollination, even rely on a single species, as some tropical plants that have modified their flowers so that only one species of hummingbird can access inside.

In Cannabis, and in most species with different sexes, these cases don’t happen, in them occur the more perfect phenomenon compatibility. Genetic. In these cases, both the pollen (male part) as the carpel (female part), have some genes that determine if the crossing is possible or not. What it happens is that when detecting that both have the same genes recognition genes assume from the same plant or genetically very close, and therefore is not allowed fertilization. If our goal is to create new strains must think about this factor, otherwise, new generations will lose viability and won’t produce seed.

This phenomenon will be crucial to achieving our goal. What we want to achieve is that the plant has the genes we want to express to achieve the desired phenotype and that the plants are stable so that your generations retain the characteristics of their progenitor. What we want to get is just the opposite that plants want and, for this reason, many problems are presented in stabilizing the new strains. To understand this wehave to explain something about genetics.

When Gregor Mendel began his studies to find out how the characters are transmitted from parents to children, it was with peas. Not coincidentally, he used plants because he realized that this could control the crosses he wanted and observe visible characters quickly and easily. Through his studies he discovered the principles of genetics. Broadly speaking, you must to know that all our DNA genes have two copies, one that comes from our father and one from our mother. The expression of the gene (the phenotype) depends on the interpretation of these two copies.

If the two copies are the same is said that the gene is in homozygous (AA or aa) and, therefore, the information is expressed without any problem (in the case of peas Mendel, whether they were yellow and if AA were aa were green). When both copies are different will be in heterozygous (Aa) and here we could differentiate each of the copies. The one that will express the dominant heterozygous (A) and will not be called recessive (a): Mendel's peas that were Aa were yellow. For our purposes we will interest genes are homozygous, when they are thus always passed to the progeny to the same copy and we get individuals with the same characteristics, or what is the same, homogeneous and stable varieties.

Let's see how will the offspring and their percentages in the paternal function involved in the crossing. If you cross a homozygous dominant individual (AA) with a homozygous recessive (aa), 100% of the offspring will be heterozygous (Aa) and parental phenotype will be like AA. If we cross two heterozygous individuals will otherwise: we will genetically 25% of individuals AA, another 25% will be aa and 50% will be Aa, as the only parameter that can distinguish is the phenotype, we see that 75% have the phenotype dominant and 25% recessive. There are more combinations and we have to keep in mind that you want to select can be caused by more than one gene, making it difficult to study and modify the proportions. When we know these concepts, we can see how the desired genes behave according to the manifest phenotypic ratios in the offspring and thus better focus our study.

Unfortunately, genetics isn’t so simple. Can have genes are expressed in heterozygous and homozygous form another (called codominance) is the case of some flowers that are red if copies are AA, white if are aa and pink if are Aa. Genes that depend on others to express themselves, such as height in humans: when more dominant copies of the involved genes are taken, the individual will be higher. Genes can be turned on / off at certain times from external causes and so on. Genetics is very complex, and all the factors that regulate or modify that only certain characters can select based on phenotype and whose ability to be easily transmitted.

We can’t know what DNA can have our plants so we will must to do the same to Mendel: observe the characters that interest us and we will select those plants until get that these genes are homozygous. Remember that if our phenotype is dominant, what we see at first glance may be the result of an individual homozygous or heterozygous (AA and Aa) and, depending on this factor will have a different offspring. If the ownership of our gene is recessive facilitate the selection because only manifest if is homozygous (aa).

If we want to select individuals with more than one property (with more than one gene involved) the thing is further complicated because the genetic combinations soar. This is the reason why many plants germinate need for individuals who possess the characteristics you want.

Finally, you must define both inbreeding depression and hybrid vigor. The first has to do with the harmful effects that have those individuals who have most of their genes in homozygous as a result of forced self-pollinations. If we do this repeatedly in our Cannabis plants we realize that the resulting individuals lose many of its features, such as reduced viability of their seeds, individuals more susceptible to disease or be generally weaker plants. Like we mentioned at the beginning of the article: plants have adapted to avoid self-pollination and this implies that genetically homozygous individuals are weaker (although it seems contradictory) and so natural selection will ensure that no transmit their characters to future generations. It is certainly one of the most important factors to keep in mind as we work to create new strains.

Hybrid vigor is the opposite, those plants that have most of their genes were heterozygous, are usually more vigorous than their parents. It is an important factor because if we cross two stable varieties will be a much more vigorous first generation but to try to fix and stabilize these individuals we will be virtually impossible because its features will be progressively losing gradually increase the homogeneity of their genes.

Broadly speaking, these are the main problems that we will face and, above all, that we can control, within limits, without delving into genetic analysis or laboratory conditions. Now we know more about our plants, how they behave their genetics and the problems we will go to appear, the question is: How can then act to generate pure lines of Cannabis? That task will leave for the next article.



Hope you find it interesting thread.
Greetings!
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Hi you breeding pros

Would be interesting to know if there are phenotypical markers (or other "tangible things") for certain genes which support hybrid vigour or facilitate inbreeding depression. It would astonish me if there really were something easily visible and I guess you guys don't share too much of your secrets anyway ;) . Is it even known which kind of genes or gene families are involved?

There are a few so called IBL's out there and those seem to do fine... How strict or close can a line be kept to avoid inbreeding depression? How far away need the parents to be in terms of relatedness to reverse it? You see, I know what's defined as IBL in lab animals and how many generations of littermate crossing and alike it may take but I have no clue with canabis. All I know is that from a purely scientific point of view an F7 is far from an inbed line and still people in the seed biz call it that. I wonder at which point such an "allegedly morphologically fairly stable line" turns into a genetic mess and how fast that happens (lost my own "experiment" at F3 to a thief)...

Thanks in advance for a sincere reply!
 

FlaCaEnt

Member
very interesting thread subbed fasho, look forward to this article getting more attention. genetics are always a fun discussion
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Originally posted by Sam_Skunkman:
Think about it, almost all Cannabis seeds sold are hybrids, most are Indica X Sativa hybrids if you grow a male and a female of a single hybrid variety and pollinate them they do not produce the same as the parents, they segregate to 25% like the original mother 25% like the original dad and 50% like the hybrid parents. This is because the seeds are F2 or F3 or whatever.
If you look just at one gene or one morphological characteristic, then you're right but cannabis has 20 genes which randomly mix up and not just one. That means, sibling-crossing/selfing an F1 of two truly homozygous parents which are different from one another will result in 4^20 (over a trillion) possibilities of which only a million is homozygous on all genes. Assuming that one has an F3/F4 or not completely different parents so that only each second chromosome is different, will still result in a million different possible combinations, again only 0.1% of those are homozygous. Trying to reduce changes differently, lets say that each chromosome bears only one single heterozygous allele and you back-cross to a completely homozygous parent, you still end up with a chance of less than one in a million to find two exactly identical siblings. With some selection done, we assume again that half of the chromosomes/alleles are heterozygous, one gets a chance of on in a thousand.
And that is without taking dominant/co-dominant/intermediary/recessive inheritance, chromosomal crossover and epigenetical mechanisms etc. into account... Basically, one may do selection of a few 'important' phenotypical traits but truly stabilizing something which is prone to inbreeding depression (I found out that fibre hemp showed it after 10 generations of open pollinated farming)... There isn't even a definition about the point at which a hybrid or new cross becomes a new line, strain, cultivar etc.

Just my 2 cents ;)
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Only Ornamental,
Most registered hemp varieties are reproduced via open pollination, most have been around for more then 10 years. Where did you get your data? How many plants were reproduced via open pollination each of the 10 years? What variety was the hemp? French Monoecious? Or a dioecious variety? Makes a big difference.
I have grown millions of hemp plants worldwide, well more then 100 varieties, I do know hemp a little bit.
BTW, Skunk#1 was open pollenated for more then 10 years, I saw no inbreeding depression.
-SamS
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Hello Sam,
Well, can't exactly remember where but it was a statement by Lyster H. Dewey, the guy who worked at Arlington Farm in the '30 to '40s. Was it in here CLICK ME? Think it was about 'Chington' or one of these famous 'Kentucky hemp' varieties which needed to be back-crossed regularly to the Chinese varieties becaus they turned all small and bushy kinda... Suppose, that this was open pollination of dioecious plants back then...
Appreciate your comment on Skunk and it's also good to know that you know hemp, you could if you'd find some spare time pimp up my hemp thread here on icmag :D .
 

blueblaze

New member
OK what ide really like to discuss is breeding for potency and i think i know how to do it just cant put my thumb on it right now im going to talk about speed breeding for flavor and a hell of a kick.So i have goin right now liberty haze my potent 25% thc plant a beautiful white russian with a male or 2 my spicey white devil that is blueberry and my green love potion that has a blackberry lavender traight all being ready to seed.Hell i dont know how factuall it is but i seen someone start flowering from seed and get buds im gonna have to try different veg times but im gonna take my spicey white devilxwr mix and mix it to green love potionxwr so grow six of each in a box for stealth hell use cfls and try to acquire a new flavord strain if i skip veg itll only take 2 months for smoke or less.ahh i have a beautiful cotton candy strain with another lavender to mix.soyeah we could box the spicey and the green love inbreeding for 3 sets to get 100% flavors but hell i have 3 flavored plants and the liberty tastes li
 

blueblaze

New member
like lime so its gonna be a fruity ass bash after i breed my seeds to the cotton candy in my box i will take my new triple trifeckta of flavored strain and outcross again to my liberty haze for potency i will then breed out these seeds using cannalytics and cuttings find my most potent in my seed batch and then self my newest strain the kings clown.so in 6 months you can create a strain name it and be cool. not to mention i now have pure white russian seeds spicey white devil xwr stock green love potionxwr wrxgreenlpotionxspiceywhitexco
 

blueblaze

New member
cotton candy stock and all that mixed with liberty plus wrx liberty i could always try to find a more potent one in and someday ill make some selfed feminised liberty haze so my breeding stock consists of all 20%thc
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
@blueblaze: Sorry dude, but your posts read like you're growing Erythroxylum sp. and not Cannabis sp... Do you really think that germinating 6 of each will be enough to find the perfect specimen? IMO it would be better to grow as many possible of just one cross at a time.
 

blueblaze

New member
yeah fuck that now concluding you take 4 strains breeding purple with no ancestry to each other and breed em 2 at a time youll get purple stock now if you IBL that line youll get uniformilly shared and same genetics being purple if you backross 3 times theyll be 75% purple out bred to another purple 100% now im not to much into stabilizing strains other than yield potency color or flavor why not mix 3 flavored genetics and hit it with a potent ill keep myf3by 1 ibl and make 100% healthy strain and make feminised seeds from my kings clown and if i wanted to mass produce it keep my f2xibl1 male and breed it with my liberty in 100 clone form of each thats what happens to indoor growers they inbreed seeds to death never getting an outcross strain to come in hell indoors and outdoors are a lot alike its just they sometimes get some new stock from the wind.
 
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