Controllers, timers and amps

[bellend]

Hey guys, I have a 9.5x9.5 room that I sealed up this past weekend that currently has 600w. I want to eventually expand to 4kw but am having trouble figuring out how all the amperage will go together.

I'm looking at a master timer for the lights. Something like this..

http://hydrobuilder.com/light-contr...egps_CAMLC4X&gclid=CNuZjZrJnsECFS1k7AodVxsABQ

Two questions:
1. Can that thing even handle 4 lights @ 30 amps?
2. Where would this thing plug in to? Controller, wall, somewhere else? I'm completely lost.

I want to get a sentinel chhc-4 or something similar for temp, humidity and co2. How does the controller handle all the amps from the dehuey and temp control?

Thanks for the help guys. I'm a complete noob (as you can tell) but want to get this right!

 

[jav2043]

30 amp for 4 1k's if your run them 240volts each on will pull about 4.5 amps where as 120 volt run at 9 amps. You then connect controller to any timer. BTW cap gear sucks you should look into Titan or Autopilot controllers.

 

[bellend]

Thanks, Jay, the local hydro store carries autopilot and I was looking at it the other day. Will go with that,homie.

 

[Philosophelon]

1) Yes, but only at 240v

2) I believe it is hardwired, so it doesn't plug in to anything. If it has a cord, you connect that in a junction box (or add a plug if necessary and install a dryer outlet), and if it doesn't you run romex right into the controller.

*edit - as jav said, the little 120v cord for the relay does plug into a timer, however. Also, if your ballasts are right by an existing 30A 240v (like for an electric dryer) receptacle you could plug it into that, but you can't use extension cords.

Also

BTW cap gear sucks

 

[bellend]

Thanks Philosophelon! One of my main problems is going to be figuring out how to get all the power to the room. I'm in an old house with no 240v outlets. The room is upstairs where there are 2bedrooms and 1 outlet in each room. I may have to run power from downstairs. Do you recommend against that? I may end up not being able to run the lighting that I want but I want to run as much as I can while being safe.

I won't buy any CAP gear either, haha. Thanks man

 

[Snow Crash]

Thanks Philosophelon! One of my main problems is going to be figuring out how to get all the power to the room. I'm in an old house with no 240v outlets. The room is upstairs where there are 2bedrooms and 1 outlet in each room. I may have to run power from downstairs. Do you recommend against that? I may end up not being able to run the lighting that I want but I want to run as much as I can while being safe.

I won't buy any CAP gear either, haha. Thanks man

No way around it. If you want 240v in that room, and it sounds like you do, you're going to have to run power up there. Get an electrician to do it!

Most power distribution boxes and multi-light timers are just suped up power strips. The inside is pretty simple, just fuses and relay's and wires. But, a lot of these boxes aren't up to the standard and they use junk (which is why CAP is out of business). Hydrofarm bought the name and where they overlapped they cut out the line. But don't be fooled, the Autopilots are basically CAPs with a different name.

Powerboxes are where it is at, especially if you don't want to hardwire. They are American made, super heavy duty components, and an awesome warranty. Its a few more dollars up front but they are 1000% worth it, especially over the life of the unit.

Do not get a built in timer if you go with a Titan. You have this awesome box, couple hundred dollars, hardwired and installed. And what always breaks? That shitty little $10 built in timer piece of junk. A Titan Helios 5 will do the job, it is ETL listed and designed for that 30 amp draw and a 20 amp load (up to 4x1000w ballasts at 240v).

Also consider your need for Air conditioning and dehumidification for 4 lamps in that space. Account for 4,000 to 5,000 btu per lamp, so 16,000 to 20,000btu on the AC (1.5 ton would do). The dehumidifier will also need to be able to remove as much water as evaporates during the day. So if you need to add 12 gallons per day to your reservoir, that water had to go somewhere, and you'll need a dehumidifier that can handle about 100 pints a day. These dump out some heat too. Also, the CO2 burner adds some heat... So a 2 ton AC (24,000btu) will probably keep up but a 2.5 (30,000btu) would be more than enough to handle everything, plus some summer sun if the place isn't very well insulated.

The Sentinel CHHC-4 is one of the best products available, especially for the money. For high power units like AC's and Dehumidifiers you'll need to add in some Power Relay's. These act as a "middle-man" for the power with a trigger cable that attaches to the CHHC-4 which sends a very basic On/Off signal to the Relay and a Power cable that supplies the actual wattage to the appliance. Lower power relays are available for the 110/120v stuff that pulls a lot of juice

Let me know if you need some help setting up your grow space. In this day and age, you're not stuck with what your local store has. The internet has everything and they deliver it to your doorstep.

 

[bellend]

Hey Snow thanks for the reply man, Let me tell you a little more about my situation..

I rent so putting in a mini split or running a 240v line to the room is not possible. I'm going to be stuck with the largest 120v window unit I can find (which is 15k btu with some google searching). I'm thinking I won't be able to get 4 lights in there because I'm stuck at 15k btu's of ac. Might just have to go 3.

I'm switching up my plan. I picked up a dehuey with its own sensor and when i upgrade my ac I'm going to get one with a thermostat that way I only have to get a co2 controller. I'm looking at one of the titan atlas controllers for co2..

What do you think?

Thanks guys!!

 

[Philosophelon]

First off, I agree with Snow Crash about using sentinel controllers, great value but still reliable. As he has also pointed out, there are a shit ton of variables involved, so I'll try to address some of the basics first.

A few questions:

1) When you say that you're a noob, how much experience does that entail?

2) How much knowledge/experience do you have regarding electrical work?

3) Can you give some more specifics about what you want the grow to be like overall?
For example, is the sealed 9.5' room the only room you'll be using for the whole op, or do you plan to run others as well (e.g. veg room/tent/something)?

4) Why have you elected to run a sealed room instead of a naturally aspirated one?

5) Is it possible for you set up your grow so that you have two smaller flowering rooms/tents/whatever?

The only practical way for you to significantly reduce your required electrical capacity is to run a flip-flop.

If you don't know what that is, basically it's having your ballasts hooked up to two bulbs each, and the lamps switch back and forth every 12 hours, so that only one is on at once. That way you can draw 2kw for 24 hours instead of 4kw for 12 hours. This also means that you only need to cool 2kw of lights at a time, instead of 4kw, so it will also cut down on the elec. capacity necessary for A/C, as you can get away with a smaller A/C unit.

Note that this only reduces the electricity used at a given time, you will still use the same amount overall (or I'd be REALLY rich, lol), it's just spread over 24 hrs instead of 12 hrs, so you don't need as much capacity.

*edit - try not to get too excited and get ahead of yourself (which is very easy to do if this is new for ya); taking a little longer to plan things out ahead of time will save you a lot of time and money in the long run - trust me, I've tried it both ways, hahaha

Almost forgot - what is the max capacity to the room under the current electrical setup? Like 2x 15A/120v circuits or whatever.

 

[bellend]

1) I have an outdoor season and 1cfl grow that was nothing close to the set up I have now. I've been reading overgrow and this site for years and use it as a reference and inspiration for my build.
2) my electrical knowledge is pretty much non existent. Have never worked with it. I have an electrician friend who may be able to help me.
3) I have a4x4 tent in another room I plan on vegging in and then this will be the flower room. I also have a separate space to keep clones and moms.
4) I'd like to run with co2 in the near future, main reason for sealing. Security is an added plus. Maybe I should add intake and exhaust to the room in the mean time to save on power?
5) I could probably set up a flip-flop but that's more work than I'd like to do in case of a tear down (maybe I'm making it out to be more work than it is?)

Right now the room has one wall outlet and I think they're 2x 15A circuits. I know they're 120v for sure.

I hear ya about getting ahead of myself lol. Going to slowly expand the grow instead of going big.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Not to stir it up, but these industrial timers produced by Intermatic is what I use. They are mechanical (not digital) and super heavy duty...Home Depot carries them for around $70.

The specific model I would suggest is T104: 208-277 volts, DPST relay, 40 amps with loads up to 5 HP.

Home Depot link: http://www.homedepot.com/s/intermatic%2520t104?NCNI-5
Intermatic link: http://www.intermatic.com/Products/TimeSwitches/MechanicalSwitches/24Hour/T100Series/T104.aspx

If you have a basic understanding of electricity....then an electrician is not necessary, but you do have to "hard wire" it.

For extra "tricks", I use 25 amp rated relays (NTE R55 series) which allow me to have power when the timer is "off"...and to "power off/on" at specific temps, connect it to a thermostat....these are heavy duty (kind used in alarms & vending machines) and are $15-20 each.

Spec sheet: www.nteinc.com/relay_web/pdf/R55.pdf

 

[mowood3479]

I would really doubt that a bedroom in an old house has 2 separate 15 amp circuits...
U can isolate the circuits by turning off breakers one at a time n checking what has actually turned off.
And btw, i have put 30amp 240 lines into every rental ive ever had (6+)..
If there is a will there is a way..
Ive run them along chimneys(outside)
To get the line from basement to 2nd floor..
If u have the option to hire an electrician u should do that..
They have the equipment to
Run the wire in the wall with very little drywall damage.
Then when u move out.. Clip n pull the 240v line, pull the breaker and ur good to go

 

[mowood3479]

To clarify.. I have run the 10 gauge wire along the outside of a chimney but still inside the house..

 

[Philosophelon]

If the reason for sealing is to supplement with CO2, you may want to consider naturally-aspirated if the climate permits. Increasing the amount of light will pretty much always increase yield more significantly than supplementing CO2. If you use CO2, you will have to use less light in order to accommodate the electrical needs of an A/C unit and dehuey (given limited electrical capacity). Also of note, being on the second floor makes it easier and safer to run exterior ventilation.

As far as the difficulty involved in running a flip-flop, it isn't really any more difficult than normal, but it is a bit more work and expense initially (and would take a little longer to tear down, but not much). If you are using a single room for flowering, you can simply place two tents in said room, and use them as two separate flowering rooms. This should also allow you to use the tent room as a lung room if you choose, which makes ventilation easier and less expensive. You can also exchange the air in your lung room with the air in the house, that way it won't matter what the weather is like (as long as your house has A/C).

As far as running new power to your room, it's not difficult (but it is a goddamned PITA) to snake new cable through existing walls. The only special tool you need is a cable snake, but you also need some standard tools (e.g. drill, spade bit, etc.). If you really aren't comfortable, the trick will be actually connecting the romex to new receptacles (easy), and either installing a new breaker in the main panel (still pretty easy, but can be very dangerous), or tapping into an existing circuit in your basement by installing (or using existing) junction boxes (easier than a new breaker, and much safer – I recommend this if you are DIYing). Oh, and if you can't snake new cable for some reason, it is also possible to install a new 240v breaker and hook the existing cable up to it (provided it is the proper size, obviously). If you do this, make sure to change the 120v receptacle to the proper 240v receptacle.

If you have a friend who knows basic electrical work, he can easily help you with any of the stuff with which you are uncomfortable – you'll probably be surprised at how easy it is, and be able to DIY the next time around.

I've also re-wired rentals. I even built an entire finished room in a basement once (I shit you not), but my landlord was a total slumlord who didn't pay attention to anything but the rent. If the cable is in the walls, no one can see it, then just put something in front of the outlet if your landlord is going to be in the room. It is highly unlikely that they are going to go in the basement and inspect the house's wiring in detail for no reason.

Regarding the current electrical capacity, do you mean two separate 15A circuits, or two outlets on one 15A circuit? As mowood pointed out, it would be unusual for an old house to have two dedicated 15A circuits feeding to one room – although landlords sometimes add them so tenants can run a window A/C. If you only have 1x 15A circuit feeding that room, you are absolutely going to need more power. I personally dislike extension cords, but for lower/intermittent loads they are safe (and very easy to install, lol) as long as you keep them off the ground (also consider a GFCI). If you have extra capacity on a circuit with a nearby outlet, you could use an extension cord for pumps, fans, etc. to cut down on the load on the room circuit. You still might need more juice if you want to fill the space, though.

Anyway, given a limited electrical capacity, I'd suggest considering a naturally-aspirated 1200w flip-flop (2400w overall growing light - 4x600w lamps, 2 lamps on at a time). Depending on how much extra juice you can send to your room, you could run 4x1kw lamps, but probably not with a flip-flop because of your space limitations, so you'd need the whole 4kw at once. If you absolutely can't get any more power to the room, you may even have to stick to a 600w flip-flop, but if you put your pumps and fans on an extension cord, you can run a 1200w flip-flop (almost lights-only) on a 15A circuit. This is also good if you plan to expand in stages, as you can set up one tent with 2x600w lamps, and then just add a flip box and another 2x600w tent when you're ready, without needing more electrical capacity. Additionally, I don't remember exactly, but a 600w lamp is about 80% of the light of a 1k, but with 60% of the heat. Someone chime in if I'm way off on that, my memory is in a bit of a state at the moment

P.S. - IMPORTANT What kind of cable is used for the wiring in your house? Some older homes use cable other than the standard Romex, so if you have cable with round rubber-insulated wires wrapped in a woven cloth (no idea what it's called), or anything else other than romex really, it is important to take that into account.