Cloning Machines (TurboKlone) Questions

[mtownshend]

I've been using a TurboKlone (TK) for about a year now. Got the small, 24 site model then upgraded to the 50 site model after I got a good deal on the 24 site and a sale that they are having on their home page. Coming out with a new model and all the old ones are 40-50% off. So, I upgraded for 100bucks. That was my goal cause I figured that a bigger reservoir (res) would be best (logic works with aquariums, lol).

I've struggled with this for the entire time, but there are points that you get to where the water is on point and they are workhorses for a few months, til you have to change the water. Then that vigor and fast rooting either stops or regresses into a slimy mess.

So, I thought that I would ask if anyone might think of anything that I might be doing now that could improve the consistency.

TK machines are aeroponic, which is different from what I have seen discussed here in that it uses a water pump connected to multiple heads that spray the clones constantly and directly sometimes. As opposed to the bubbles in other machines with air pumps.

Here are some images that show the system and internal mechanics.

I've been monitoring the water temp with a thermostat probe, it's a lot hotter than I thought, roughly 73-76F. I'm thinking that an intermittent timer might be in order, not an expense I want to add to this already expensive project and I know that they aren't needed so if it will save $150 I'll skip it. I can lower the temps by placing the cloner on the concrete. I'll do that and see how it affects the temps. There's some support and an insulation panel between it and the floor currently. Maybe I can tap into the latent heat, rather cold, in the concrete to maintain a constant temp in the upper 60's which would be optimal.

Figure the temps are worked out, I can do that, I've put a ton of all kinds of cloning solutions in the water. Per the bottle, half the dose, twice the dose, always a week between any additions/changes. Seems I get mostly stagnant cuttings that will develop the nodules at the tip, but never push roots out, 90 percent don't. Some strains are clearly more tolerant and root quick, reliably, but the majority do not. One that is the best happens to be Calli Connections Blue Dream Haze, which is incredible if given a little extra time. I let some go 11 weeks recently and it is one of those that will replace all my head stash and probably will not get sold unless I can get a better one, but I doubt it, i'm about to retire that anyway if it lets me, like I said, it does root, must just be a super easy one to get to root.

I have read that the only thing that works reliably is the solution for another cloner, Clear Rez I believe (Which I have on order, both the clearRez and the pool shock) Plan to try that based on feedback here if possible;
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FEOL240/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEOPFU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That it's basically pool shock and that it works with a totally different mechanic that I have been aiming for with cloning gel, solution, H2O2 and Orca when/if I get enough clones with those 1" tips. The Orca will make them turn to 4" in a couple days and 6
8" within a week of application, but that's when the machine is producing, currently it's full and nothing has rooted, but most that are 4+ days old have nodules, but are in their 2nd week now and still no roots.

If I added 5ml of grow to the res. the clones with nodules would spring up 2-3" in a few days, I just can't get them to root.

If anyone had had the same issue or has a regime that is consistent I would love to know what your doing. Any machine that works like this should have the same requirements and similar rooting programs.

I am curious if the temps are the issue. I have a tent coming to hold just the cloner (36" high I believe), I will get better control over all environmental parameters once that is in place with in and outtake fans, heater and some fresh air to cool and thermostat to control it all.

Maybe by then I will have received some advice on what to use. Currently I have just Clonex Gel, but various cloning solutions; Hormex (what I am currently using, it has the lowest dilution rate), Clonex, Olivia's, Roots UC, and a couple more that all worked the same, no results for the most part.

 

[mtownshend]

Here are the images:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xim1pzfrg8am6cv/TK - Guts.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/midh4eovhswmb64/TK schematic.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5l59z5l4jn3yyg/TK T48.jpg?dl=0

 

[mtownshend]

I am sorry, I've tried to get the images linked several ways, but I can't seem to edit my posts, so I don't want to make 5 posts with bad links.

 

[mtownshend]

I've got the Clear Rez and the pool shock in the mail (will use that later if this is the trick I needed).

Also, put the clone machine in a tent with in/out exhaust, fan and heater. Thermostat to control... temp gauge to monitor water constantly.

Added Clear Rez per bottle instructions (1 oz/5g, 4g res.(ervoir) , so .8 oz of Clear Rez) and 7.5mL/g clonex rooting solution based off past experience, I will add 5ml a day til I see roots, then back off completely unless water is lost.

With these changes, my air and water temps are about the same, so I have a recycle timer coming that hopefully will give me the 3-5 degrees F I need to maintain that differential I have read is so important for fast rooting.

Currently, I have the room set at 77 degrees F, which is the water temp I just checked. Fortunately it doesn't fluctuate as much as the air temp and I know that the fan on this is responsible for the lower few degrees I am getting now in the res.

If I can't get roots after this, I'll be going back to the rockwool cube set up, at least I was getting close to 100% regularly with that, just the roots were nothing compared to those that grow out of this machine, so I want this to work in order to maintain schedule for the most part.

30 of the clones in there are over 2 weeks old and have nodules, just no roots. I am hoping that by tomorrow I will start to see roots (or they will be making room for new cuttings).

All the cuttings I have taken since starting Clear Rez are doing better than expected. Some were sure to have a tough time standing up on their own, but are and pointing straight up to the light.

So it appears that it's only a matter of getting the water temp within target and how much cycling that will take. I don't like the idea of the water being off, but I am sure that if I keep it off for say 5 min and on 30 to start, I should be able to see the impact if any to expect.

Any suggestions? Would be great to hear from anyone who might be using a clone machine and experiencing or experienced the same issues with low rates of rooting. Since I am using a product made by a different clone machine manufacturer and a totally different approach to rooting and machines that info is scant regarding the mechanism at play here and why, I know it's chloramine, but what it's doing I have no clue, but if members here experienced success with this and it's been backed up by others, I'm gonna give it the best shot I know how. Problem is that the thread is from 09, too old to bring back, but since It's 8 years old, I must just be behind the curve, which would not surprise me at all.

Any advice on getting the water temps down or anything I may have rambled off here? Would there be any benefit to adding an ice pack every 6 hours or so? I am sure the water will return to it's previous temp, but maybe those bursts of cold water will be enough to get them started or too much (2-4hrs per pack, temp change I never monitored, it's not constant. Temps are coldest at first and rise slowly over 4 hours or so to normal, i'll throw a 250mL one in and check temps regularly tonight to see it's effect on water temp over time). Surely a constant temp is preferred, but anyone have any clue if lowering the temps using ice water will be enough or do they need lower temps 24/7? Trying to see if this would be wasting my time or helping in any way, I have tons of these containers I can use if needed, have to see what one does and go from there.

Very tough questions to find answers for via google. Seems this may have been resolved by most years ago, I only pick the spade back up 2 years ago, things have definitely changed in the decade I been out of touch, raising my kids...

 

[mtownshend]

Lower water temperatures using a cycle timer. I am curious if there are any members using a cloning machine with a cycle timer to keep water temps down?

Assuming air temps at 75-78F and a fan blowing, indirectly (I can adjust temp to anything) These would be the most important temperature related questions I have at this point;
-What are the best settings to start with and work towards with a cycle timer, if it's a help?

- Max off time in emergency or maintenance? (figure all clonex and Clear Rez)

-Is it more important that the temps during the day be cycled than the night or are they of equal importance? (in general, all temps drop at night, but with these machines, the water doesn't change more than a few degrees, if that, so unless the machine is in a temp controlled area, the difference between ambient and water temps may be too much to allow for cloning)
Water cooling seem to be the most important aspect of all machines now that I have had some experience with them. I do have a water pump that can be mounted outside the res, but it seems that they are not made to be modified.

I should make my own at some point. Definitely have an external pump on any that I design, that seems to be a no brainer, missed by all the brains that designed these things, probably to keep costs down, but even the expensive ones have internal pumps, but larger res..

The gold standard of water cooling seems to be a computer water cooler radiator from a PC water cooler. It has 1/2" copper in and out and recirculates water through hoses to a large water bin, the bigger the better. You can get water reduction in the 15-20F range depending on demand, pump size and water res. temp. (the coldest that water from the tap will be is 56-58F all year throughout most of the US, assume that when choosing a res.). This "U" shaped copper line has a radiator wrapped around it with aluminum fins (see any PC water cooler radiator, they store some water too and recirculate it several times). That Is the gold standard for extreme temperatures in a PC (graphics and/or CPU), it must be good for a cloning cloning machine considering the temps these components get to if left unchecked, 70F does not seem out of the question, but definitely another mod to be cost effective (I have several of these laying around that all work). Getting the tubes in and out of the machine properly seems impossible considering how thin the walls are. Definately need to use the drain tube, that takes care of one and as long as these have adequate support on both sides I don't think that getting then sealed with aquarium sealer should be out of the question. Just an expensive mod to start and who knows when you will finish it. Have to do it some day when it's empty, haven't seen that day yet, but maybe the changes documented above are enough.

 

[noyd666]

load both barrels and let em rip , got one myself , went back to just sticking them into cups of coco.will try turbo in winter again.

 

[Loc Dog]

I had horrible luck with aeroponic cloner, although great success with aeroponic after roots are well established. I went to this guys rockwool method, with over 95% success with GG4, less with some other strains. I like weighing the cubes, and knowing how much they should weigh each day. Starts at 60 grams, looking for 2 gram loss a day, till about a week. Then just add nutrient solution to keep them between 48 and 52 grams. A water chiller is about $300.00 and uses a lot of electric. The rockwool is listed first, then his aeroponic is a few posts down -

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=268211

 

[Medfinder]

been getting very good results from using clonex iquid in water after cutting and letting the clones soak fro 24 hours into machine root riot peat or rockwool

the cloe machine must be checked for clogged sprinkler heads and proper sprinkler coverage

 

[Chunkypigs]

You have to empty clean and sterilize every cycle, not just keep adding water and more cuttings.

Once you get the slime it's hard to clean out of the machine and rubbers.

I use water with two drops of bleach per gallon, no Chems or cloning stuff and like 76 degrees or less.

 

[mtownshend]

Thanks Medfinder, I had some questions regarding your post:

been getting very good results from using clonex liquid (assuming the solution) in water after cutting and letting the clones soak for 24 hours into machine root riot peat or rockwool

I am reading this 2 ways, 1 is that you are using the standard method of cloning using solution instead of get OR:
You take the cutting and let sit in rockwool with clonex solution mixed in for 24hours and then transfer to the machine? I would think that a quick dip in clonex again wouldn't be of any help. That seems like a great solution to the issue of the gel washing off, but I have moved to a different cloning hormone, Hormex that is a liquid rooting solution (reviews seemed to place it above clonex, but there are so many variables a positive review can be negative on your set up). I have noticed that I get nodules to appear much faster when I use that. I can't seem to get beyond the nodules, to roots, but I have had this dialed in a few times for 6 month periods and they can be 100% effective and create roots that are 6-8" long and bright white. Also, when it has been dialed in, clones can stay in there for months, all the while growing roots, adding a trace of N to it will have visible results in 24 hours and seems to give the long term residents a bit of a boost til it's all used up. However, whenever I had to change the water I lost that vigor and if I hadn't used all the clones, they would die within a week. One time I used the machine to grow 6 clones to 12" (4" in 2 daze) and xplanted and flowered immediately. The result was no different had I let it acclimate to the pot, but I rarely see stress xplanting anyway.

the clone machine must be checked for clogged sprinkler heads and proper sprinkler coverage

I used to maintain the water with 5-10mL/g of H2O2 a week if needed, Try to give the water mix 10-14 days or longer if it's working. I have read that you can keep the same water a month or 2, as long as you maintain the cloning solution and can keep the bene population up b4 I actually replace all the water, I let it go a lot longer when it's working properly, I make small changes to the water maintaining the solution in the res.. when it's dialed in, I was keeping 1/3 of the old water (strained) to "prime" the new and cleaning every inch of the machine. This is how I was able to keep the machine at peak performance. Something happened each time and I had to start with a new res. of cloning solution.

BTW, A brine shrimp net works great to skim the solution and remove any solids that may clog the nozzles, but I would say that I clear the nozzles all once a week, and soak them in a mild bleach solution for a long time at each solution change, I have a few hundred nozzles from various promotions. Don't throw them away, I just use the set from last water change which have been soaked for a few weeks and rinsed thoroughly.

I am trying to get this machine "dialed in" permanently, learn what it was that I did to get such amazing results. These were so good that I bought one that has 2x the sites and res size. because I figured that a larger res would help maintain consitancy, but I have the same issues. When I do change the solution, the whole maifold and pump is placed in a cooler with water and bleach, let run for 30min, then 30 min clean water. The res it's self gets a compete cleaning of every nook and cranny. The machine looks new at the time I replace the solution. I just add ClearRez and Clonex to the res.

Just to be clear:
You soak your cuttings in clonex and rockwool the first 24 hours and you use the solution, not the gel? Then remove from rockwool and put into the machine, never actually giving them any rooting hormone, rather the solution is enough to start roots?

 

[MJPassion]

Hey yo...

Go check out permaclone dot com & read their blog.

If your not sterile you'll eventually run into problems.

I just picked up some permaclone collars to try out. Expensive @ $3 each but the 5 year warranty makes it worth the risk, imo.

 

[lovemaker]

I am using my aquaponic system for cloning. 100% of cuttings usually put the their roots there. Aquaponic cloner is easy to build as described here